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Oils
Jul 4, 2011 9:36:36 GMT 2
Post by ronnie on Jul 4, 2011 9:36:36 GMT 2
Hi Marius
For any one who has not seen the amount of oil that is thrown out when the gear lever is removed, the oil will even cover the instrument panel. I know because I had to clean Vincent`s. This should be adequate lubrication for all the components inside. Danie I do not think 500mls of extra oil will make any difference to the running temp, it will only take slightly longer to heat up. The "radiator" IE the casing is still the same size.
Ronnie
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Jul 4, 2011 9:48:01 GMT 2
Post by marius on Jul 4, 2011 9:48:01 GMT 2
Danie I was just thinking about all of this and it just struck me - the original oil deflector has been replaced in my box with a new part. It is not bend the same way as the original - in fact it is quite straight. I think this design is to ensure that more oil gets onto the bearings etc - behind the 5th gear. It is the part first from the left - marked 1 in the photo. Hence more oil in the mechanism of the gear leaver. Marius Attachments:
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Oils
Jul 4, 2011 10:02:20 GMT 2
Post by Charles on Jul 4, 2011 10:02:20 GMT 2
On my box that has been left out.
Charles
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Jul 4, 2011 12:03:20 GMT 2
Post by ronnie on Jul 4, 2011 12:03:20 GMT 2
Hi All
I spoke to Vincent this morning and he commented that you need to be carefull of overfilling as you run the risk of having the oil foaming. I am sure he will comment further.
Ronnie
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vincentc
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Jul 4, 2011 17:18:31 GMT 2
Post by vincentc on Jul 4, 2011 17:18:31 GMT 2
Hello All,
A very lively debate.
Overfilling is not advised. As oil degrades, the additive package (AW, EP, VI improvers, Anti foam additives and detergent dispersants) start reacting and may "fall" out of the oil. This we see as sludge in the most extreme cases.
Once the additives are not their to do their work, you may find that the oil foams very much like a pot of pasta with the lid on. The foam has a very negative on the oil temperature and load carrying ability of the oil.
As air is a poor conductor, the foam traps the heat, acting as an insulating blanket. This raises the temperature of the bulk oil which reduces the effective viscosity. Gear oils are heat sensitive and many of the EP (extreme pressure) additives are activated at around 90 deg C irrespective of whether they are required or not. Air bubbles when passing through gear mesh also collapse under the pressure and you then start having metal to metal contact. Air when you compress it also generates heat. In a short time you end up with a self destructing heat/wear cycle that can only be broken by changing the oil.
Water contamination of the oil could also lead to foaming with the same consequential damage.
Regards Vincent
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Oils
Jul 4, 2011 20:45:56 GMT 2
Post by marius on Jul 4, 2011 20:45:56 GMT 2
Vincent thanks for posting all these interesting and important info - much appreciated! Marius
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Nikki Lada
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Jul 5, 2011 19:55:08 GMT 2
Post by Nikki Lada on Jul 5, 2011 19:55:08 GMT 2
Thank you so much for all the detailed info Vincent – I do realize that generally speaking overfilling with oil can cause problems, and I also recall reading somewhere that if the Niva is overfilled to more than the recommended 2 litres foaming could occur and seals could pop. As I was (vaguely) aware of this I presume that those recommending the overfill must also be aware of it. Anyway, I still haven’t a clue what to do as it seems to be a bit of a ‘Catch 22’ situation but if I do overfill it will only be the 500mls recommended by Andy who states under the 'Possibly a Cheap Fix for the 5th Gear Problem' thread that this won’t cause the oil seals to pop. I also need to try to digest everything that has been said on the above thread about 'Marius`s pet lock washer'! Thanks again - I really appreciate all the comments. NIKKI
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Nikki Lada
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Jul 5, 2011 20:10:55 GMT 2
Post by Nikki Lada on Jul 5, 2011 20:10:55 GMT 2
Hi Guys
Something I forget to ask is how one goes about checking the level of the gearbox if it has been overfilled as the level will presumably be higher than the filler cap?
NIKKI
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Jul 5, 2011 20:49:07 GMT 2
Post by marius on Jul 5, 2011 20:49:07 GMT 2
Nikki "my pet lock washer" will cost you almost nothing but it will save you a fortune on repairs in the end. I don't care who says what - that washer is one of the most vital components to keep your gearbox alive and well The answer on how to check your oil level in an over-filled box - if there is no leak there is no need to check ;D Marius
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Oils
Jul 6, 2011 9:42:08 GMT 2
Post by ronnie on Jul 6, 2011 9:42:08 GMT 2
Hi Kikki
If you want to check for overfill simply remove the filler plug and the extra oil will drain out down to the factory recommended level.
Ronnie
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90ladaniva
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Jul 6, 2011 11:10:30 GMT 2
Post by 90ladaniva on Jul 6, 2011 11:10:30 GMT 2
Hi everyone ,I totally agree with Marius about his Pet Washer as it will save you major headaches and heaps of Money in Repaires to your 5th gear ,To over fill gear Box by 500mls is a good idea and wont harm your seals .Cheers Trev .
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Oils
Jul 6, 2011 18:14:54 GMT 2
Post by danie on Jul 6, 2011 18:14:54 GMT 2
Hi Nikki
Oil seals do not pop at an overfill - seals only pop when a breather gets completely blocked for whatever reason.
Sometimes at work we do see high pressure pumps which gets filled right to the top by customers, and although all these pumps also run very hot, the seals never pops - as long as these pumps have breather holes in the filler cap.
The breather caps on all our pumps get replaced with plugs, to prevent oil leaks during shipment - and one of the first things we do when a shipment of pumps arrives, is to replace the filler plugs with the breather caps.
We always take extra care at work about these breather caps - the oil seals can easily pop in less than 10 minutes ,when the pump gets hot, the air inside the pump expands - and has nowhere to go.
Long story - but the same principle applies to all oil seals which fit properly.
A "two liter" overfill is widely used on Ladas, and I have never seen any report about popping seals on these overfills on any international forum anyway.
Danie
Danie
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Jul 7, 2011 9:00:13 GMT 2
Post by marius on Jul 7, 2011 9:00:13 GMT 2
Hi Nikki ;D
Looks like you are going to have some difficulty in making a decision.
I can only add that engineers/designers don't just drill holes for the oil level plug at any old place. This is normally the level just before any "splashing" occurs in order to prevent things like foaming and subsequent overheating as mentioned in Vincent's post.
I think the argument FOR an overfill in the Niva's box came from the idea that the 5th gear was basically an add-on to the old 4 speed box - which in a way is true.
Also the thinking perhaps was that the 5th gear issues was a result of too little oil in that area. Ronnie/Vincent and I "tested" that idea and we both think that there is more than enough oil getting into that area with a standard fill.
Danie mentioned the international forums - Danie also knows that none of them EVER mentioned the lock washer and my post in this regard came as quite a surprise to Danie at the time.
My argument is that issues around the 5th gear is not as a result of too little oil - but MAINLY as a result of not fitting the proper lock washer.
There are obviously other factors as well - for instance a worn selector fork or a broken bolt on the 5th cluster gears or busted bearings - so the lock washer does not give you immunity against other issues.
I think if you want to overfill - do it - but I would personally not want to put more than 1.5 liters into the box.
Marius
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Jul 7, 2011 10:54:10 GMT 2
Post by ronnie on Jul 7, 2011 10:54:10 GMT 2
Hi Marius
I personally think what you have said is correct. The only thing I will add is to consider if you add 500mls extra on top of the 1.35 which the factory recommend you will have 37% too much oil in the gearbox. Anyone who wants to add 500mls extra should take this into account. I consider this to be a lot of extra oil.
Ronnie
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Oils
Jul 7, 2011 11:13:47 GMT 2
Post by ronnie on Jul 7, 2011 11:13:47 GMT 2
Hi Nikki
I think if your Niva was serviced by a garage the chance of your gearbox being overfilled is unlikely
Ronnie
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90ladaniva
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Jul 7, 2011 16:13:01 GMT 2
Post by 90ladaniva on Jul 7, 2011 16:13:01 GMT 2
Here in Australia we all use the so called Pet washer on our gearboxes as iv mentioned here before and dont really have an issue with our 5th gears .Cheers Trev
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Oils
Jul 7, 2011 17:35:28 GMT 2
Post by marius on Jul 7, 2011 17:35:28 GMT 2
Hi Trev
Ventz pointed out that as early as 1995 the original lock washer was replaced by the thick washer (no part number that I know of?) but after all the 5th gear issues the lock washer re-appeared in the 2003 and 2007 spare parts manual.
Marius
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Nikki Lada
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Jul 8, 2011 19:00:54 GMT 2
Post by Nikki Lada on Jul 8, 2011 19:00:54 GMT 2
Thank you so much guys for all the information and your various comments on the overfilling issue. This information will assist myself and other LOCSA members in deciding what to do. Before I do this I would appreciate some advice with regard to oil leaks and the best way to locate them. I've been noticing odd drops for a long time, which I think may be coming from the transfer and gearbox breathers , but I would like to make sure. My gearbox was overfilled by Lada Centurion some time ago, and I recall being told that any surplus would blow out and the oil would eventually find its own level. I think this may have been happening but could this suggest that the gearbox may have been overfilled by more than 2 litres? A couple of years ago, I also discovered that the transfer box had been overfilled quite a bit and I removed over 200mls after I'd found someone to loosen the filler plug for me. Before anyone asks it was definitely the FILLER plug that was removed and not the drain plug!! ;D Since then I’ve hardly driven Nikita but I’ve noticed recently that there is still quite a bit of oil around this area. I would like to take another look at this but before doing so I would like to know the best way to get rid of all the dirty oil underneath the vehicle. There's no steam cleaning facility where I live – they seem to use high pressure water hoses to blow it off but I’m not sure if this will work. With regard to the ‘Marius’s Pet Lock Washer’ I will definitely be adding this to my next order. I also have a few questions about this but I’ll raise them under the relevant thread in due course Thanks again for all the advice! NIKKI
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spikes
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Jul 8, 2011 19:12:16 GMT 2
Post by spikes on Jul 8, 2011 19:12:16 GMT 2
Hi Nikki The industrial high pressure sprays should get the oil and gunk off. Don't let them near the radiator though. The cooling tubes may get bent.
Spikes
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Jul 8, 2011 19:53:43 GMT 2
Post by Charles on Jul 8, 2011 19:53:43 GMT 2
Get a garden type poison sprayer. Spray petrol on all the oil let it soak for ten or so min. A cup of coffee and a smoke may be enjoyed in this time. Then spray it again with petrol and then spray it off with the high pressure washer.
Charles
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vincentc
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Jul 8, 2011 20:12:27 GMT 2
Post by vincentc on Jul 8, 2011 20:12:27 GMT 2
Hi Nikki,
Paraffin also works very well in cleaning components and underside. I then use my elcheapo pressure washer to rinse the paraffin off everything.
Good luck with the leak tracing.
Regards Vincent
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Oils
Jul 9, 2011 9:48:54 GMT 2
Post by ronnie on Jul 9, 2011 9:48:54 GMT 2
Hi Nikki
I use a paraffin gun to wash mine, but this is not an option if you do not have a compressor. A small compressor and kit, which usually comprises of a paraffin gun a air gun and a tyre inflator are a good investment.
Ronnie
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Oils
Jul 9, 2011 9:50:00 GMT 2
Post by ronnie on Jul 9, 2011 9:50:00 GMT 2
Hi Marius
I see your lock washer has a new name ;D ;D ;D
Ronnie
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Jul 9, 2011 10:03:11 GMT 2
Post by Charles on Jul 9, 2011 10:03:11 GMT 2
Off topic, just a quick question. Ronnie do you think one can spray paint with one of those small compressors? The ones that are useally on spesial at Game?
Charles
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Jul 9, 2011 12:31:07 GMT 2
Post by marius on Jul 9, 2011 12:31:07 GMT 2
Hi Marius I see your lock washer has a new name ;D ;D ;D Ronnie The Chairman is very honoured and humbled ;D Marius
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vincentc
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Jul 9, 2011 14:38:46 GMT 2
Post by vincentc on Jul 9, 2011 14:38:46 GMT 2
Off topic, just a quick question. Ronnie do you think one can spray paint with one of those small compressors? The ones that are useally on spesial at Game? Charles Hi Charles Yes, but you will need to get a low pressure gun HVLP (High Volume Low Pressure) or a gravity feed cup. All that happens is that you spray slower with stops to admire your work to that point while the compressor builds pressure again. www.tooltime.co.za is a site where prices or pretty good. Regards Vincent
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Oils
Jul 9, 2011 15:37:48 GMT 2
Post by ronnie on Jul 9, 2011 15:37:48 GMT 2
Hi Charles
Check the CFM of the spray gun you want to buy or have, and buy a compressor with an output to suit.
Ronnie
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Jul 9, 2011 18:44:04 GMT 2
Post by Charles on Jul 9, 2011 18:44:04 GMT 2
So with a small 24l compressor that you get a gun with you will be able to spray panels?
Charles
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Jul 9, 2011 19:19:49 GMT 2
Post by ronnie on Jul 9, 2011 19:19:49 GMT 2
Hi Charles
I am not sure about these small compressors and spraying, but if you can maintain enough air in the tank I would imagine you would manage to spray the likes of a door. Rather save your money until you can buy a larger compressor. Remember when you buy one it should last a lifetime, so buy wisely.
Ronnie
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Jul 9, 2011 19:26:02 GMT 2
Post by ronnie on Jul 9, 2011 19:26:02 GMT 2
Hi Charles
The steering box has been assembled with new bearings and Vincent`s SPECIAL OIL installed. Difficult to tell if the steering is lighter or not, but there are no oil leaks.
Ronnie
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