vincentc
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Jun 7, 2011 21:00:59 GMT 2
Post by vincentc on Jun 7, 2011 21:00:59 GMT 2
No Problem :-)
You will see that that Delo is on the list.
Just as a general note - There are many other products out there - I started with what I have previously used.
If you have a specific lubricant that you want me to evaluate, post it on the forum and I can evaluate it for you. Please however feel free to use the lubricant that you feel most comfortable with.
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vincentc
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Jun 8, 2011 19:52:17 GMT 2
Post by vincentc on Jun 8, 2011 19:52:17 GMT 2
There is confusion around API GL 4 and API GL 5 and which we should use. The following is a beautifully simple explanation of the difference between the two and is from Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gear_oil"API GL-4, oils for various conditions - light to heavy. They contain up to 4.0% effective antiscuffing additives. Designed for bevel and hypoid gears which have small displacement of axes, the gearboxes of trucks, and axle units. Recommended for non-synchronized gearboxes of US trucks, tractors and buses and for main and other gears of all vehicles. These oils are basic for synchronized gearboxes, especially in Europe. API GL-5, oils for severe conditions. They contain up to 6.5% effective antiscuffing additives. The general application of oils in this class are for hypoid gears having significant displacement of axes. They are recommended as universal oils to all other units of mechanical transmission (except gearboxes). Oils in this class, which have special approval of vehicle manufacturers, can be used in synchronized manual gearboxes only. API GL-5 oils can be used in limited slip differentials if they correspond to the requirements of specification MIL-L-2105D or ZF TE-ML-05. In this case the designation of class will be another, for example API GL-5+ or API GL-5 LS." The following is taken from the 1700_3 manual Transmission oils: Gearbox 1.35 Rear axle casing 1.3 Steering box 0.18 Transfer case 0.75 Front axle casing 1.15 SAE: 75W-90(-40°C to + 25°C) 80W-90 (-26°C to + 35°C) 85W-90 (-12°C to + 45°C) API: GL5 As very few places in SA see temperatures below -12°C I would suggest that the 85W-90 API GL-5 gear oil be used.
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Jun 8, 2011 19:58:28 GMT 2
Post by Charles on Jun 8, 2011 19:58:28 GMT 2
Thanks for clearing that up. Like I told you earlyer you are getting me very intrested in oils.
Charles
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vincentc
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Jun 8, 2011 20:21:57 GMT 2
Post by vincentc on Jun 8, 2011 20:21:57 GMT 2
Sharing knowledge is a pleasure.
The actual title for what I do is called Tribology and NO it is not the study of local Zulu's and Xhosa's ;-)
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justincase
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Jun 13, 2011 13:51:02 GMT 2
Post by justincase on Jun 13, 2011 13:51:02 GMT 2
Vincent -
Thanks for all the great information, this seems to be a subject which causes more than it's fair share of debate and confusion.
I have a 2005 multi-point injection 1.7 which just reached 80,000 kms and I just changed all the oils. I used a Valvoline GL-5 in the gearbox and a good quality Mobil semi-synthetic in the engine (impossible to find mineral oil here anymore). The old oils came out looking and smelling fine (like used oil, dark but not much floating around in them).
My question is regarding the oil in the front and rear diffs. When I took out the old oil, I was a bit shocked by the color: they looked like coffee creamer! Not completely white, but kind of a light tan color and not like any oil that I've seen before!
The last owner of the car – a rental company – kept an accurate maintenance record but there is no mention of ever changing the diff oil. We have plenty of rivers here in Iceland, so I'm wondering if some water got into the breather tubes on the differentials to cause the change in color. Or is this some Russian secret formula diff oil?
Didn't seem to cause any problem, but I've changed it to a good quality Shell gear oil specially made for axels and diffs (same oil for the transfer case).
Thanks for your expertise (whatever 'tribology' means – I'm googling it now!)
-Eric
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Jun 13, 2011 14:22:38 GMT 2
Post by marius on Jun 13, 2011 14:22:38 GMT 2
Hi Eric
Not to answer for Vincent - but that milky colour is water contamination for sure!
You mentioned the semi-synthetic in the engine. Do you find gunk/sludge in the oil when you drain?
Marius
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spikes
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Jun 13, 2011 14:25:52 GMT 2
Post by spikes on Jun 13, 2011 14:25:52 GMT 2
Hi Eric I think condensation through the breather vents caused the milky colour. It is normally an indicator of H20 spikes
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Jun 13, 2011 15:29:30 GMT 2
Post by ronnie on Jun 13, 2011 15:29:30 GMT 2
Hi Marius
I have used the same semi synthetic oil in the Niva, the Peugeot, and the diesel Landy for many years. Castrol Magnatec. It was only on the Last change on the Niva where there was any sign of problems, when the oil was black after less than 1000 kms.
Ronnie
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Jun 13, 2011 15:33:53 GMT 2
Post by ronnie on Jun 13, 2011 15:33:53 GMT 2
Hi Eric
If you are in water a lot it would pay you to extend the axle breathers up into the engine compartment. You can do the gearbox and transfer case as well though I don't think there is any way to do the gearbox when it is in place.
Ronnie
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Jun 13, 2011 15:37:00 GMT 2
Post by Ari Bezuidenhout on Jun 13, 2011 15:37:00 GMT 2
The breathers on the Niva are good as is, my Niva is constanly driving through water and although I check each time for water, I have never found water in any of my diffs, TC, GB.
Ari
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vincentc
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Jun 13, 2011 20:26:34 GMT 2
Post by vincentc on Jun 13, 2011 20:26:34 GMT 2
Hi Justincase (and every one else)
The quick check for water is called "the crackle test" take a small sample of oil and put it on a hot plate. If the oil crackles - Bingo you have water.
What Justincase also described could be chronic foaming too - Quite possibly as a result of no servicing.
Perhaps you should take an inspection cover off and check for sluge / mayonnaise in the diff housing.
For your temperatures I would however stick to the 75W or 80W-90 viscosity range.
The water could also be the result of condensation. The hot diff cools and as it cools, it sucks in moist air depositing water droplets on the diff housing inner surface.
Let us know about the crackle test ;-)
A zippo with a metal spoon also works - You check for any bubbles that form.
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justincase
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Jun 13, 2011 21:52:17 GMT 2
Post by justincase on Jun 13, 2011 21:52:17 GMT 2
Thanks all for the responses. Vincent, the crackle test sounds pretty simple, but I've already mixed the old oil in with the other waste oil from the gearbox, engine and transfer case, so it will be pretty dilute by now. Still, I'll give it a try in the morning. It doesn't get as cold as people think here thanks to the warming of the gulf-stream. But it also doesn't get nearly as hot as you all are used to either. Seems to me the ideal oil range of about -20º C to +20ºC on average. Here is a list of oils I'm using now: Engine: 10w 40 semi-synthetic www.commaoil.com/productsguide/view/6/232Gearbox: 80w 90 GL-5 www.valvoline.com/products/consumer-products/grease-gear-oil/gear-oil/61Transfer Case and Differentials: 80w 90 AX www.shell.com/static//global/.../product_flyer_spirax_ax_gx.pdfMarius: the engine oil that came out when I changed it a few hundred miles ago looked fine, no gunk or sludge. BUT, I can't say what kind of oil that was... I can only assume that it was some kind of synthetic since I've had such a hard time finding a proper mineral oil here, but you never know. Thanks for the info. Piece of mind is a valuable commodity in the Lada world!
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Nikki Lada
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Jul 2, 2011 8:33:51 GMT 2
Post by Nikki Lada on Jul 2, 2011 8:33:51 GMT 2
Hi Guys I‘ve been wading through this thread recently (not all the technical stuff) and I’m confused! To quote from what Vincent said earlier: “ Within SA I would like to urge members to use 85W-140 in the transfer cases and final drives (diffs) but stick to 80W-90 for their gearboxes” As Vincent is an expert, I don't dispute this but need some advice on a good quality, easily obtainable, brand names with these specs, and where to get them. I had to go to Komatipoort yesterday and popped in at MIDAS Malelane to look at oils. In the Castrol range I noticed: Castrol GTX High Mileage 20W50 – I gather that will will be fine for my engine?? Castrol EPX 85-140 GL5 – will this brand be okay for my transfer case and diffs?? (This was only available in a 500ml) I could find nothing marked 80w-90, but I see from the Castrol website that there is one. However, from what I read in the big GL4 vs VL5 oil debate on the UK Forum a couple of years ago Castrol apparently advise people not to use GL5 in older 'boxes with yellow metals. Can anyone please help me with what to buy that falls within Vincent’s recommendations, is freely available and won’t attack Nikita’s yellow metals! ;D Thanks a stack! NIKKI
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Jul 2, 2011 8:51:47 GMT 2
Post by ronnie on Jul 2, 2011 8:51:47 GMT 2
Hi Nikki
I am sure Vincent will reply later but I think,GTX is fine and the 80 / 140 GL5 is perfect for the diffs and transfer case. As far as the gearbox is concerned use 80 / 90 GL5. Vincent tells me GL4 is wrong for the gearbox, and I go by his advice and have GL5 in mine. I also do not have any over fill of oil in mine. Having been sprayed with oil from Vincent`s with the gear lever removed there does not appear to be an issue with the oil being thrown around in the box ;D
Ronnie
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vincentc
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Jul 2, 2011 10:18:16 GMT 2
Post by vincentc on Jul 2, 2011 10:18:16 GMT 2
Hi Guys I‘ve been wading through this thread recently (not all the technical stuff) and I’m confused! To quote from what Vincent said earlier: “ Within SA I would like to urge members to use 85W-140 in the transfer cases and final drives (diffs) but stick to 80W-90 for their gearboxes” As Vincent is an expert, I don't dispute this but need some advice on a good quality, easily obtainable, brand names with these specs, and where to get them. I had to go to Komatipoort yesterday and popped in at MIDAS Malelane to look at oils. In the Castrol range I noticed: Castrol GTX High Mileage 20W50 – I gather that will will be fine for my engine?? Yes - PerfectCastrol EPX 85-140 GL5 – will this brand be okay for my transfer case and diffs?? (This was only available in a 500ml) Yes - PerfectI could find nothing marked 80w-90, but I see from the Castrol website that there is one. However, from what I read in the big GL4 vs VL5 oil debate on the UK Forum a couple of years ago Castrol apparently advise people not to use GL5 in older 'boxes with yellow metals. The most important detail is the API specification. The oil viscosity can be any of the following SAE 90, SAE 75-90 SAE 80-90 without negatively affecting the oil performance. Try not put the 85W140 in the gearbox. The heavy viscosity makes gear changes very diffiucult when the oil is cold. Can anyone please help me with what to buy that falls within Vincent’s recommendations, is freely available and won’t attack Nikita’s yellow metals! ;D Yes - If Midas is the closest spares shop to you, I will look in their brands to select a suitable lubricant. You are also able to ask them to order any brand of oil for you, which they will, should they not have your oil on the shelf.Thanks a stack! NIKKI Regards Vincent
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Jul 2, 2011 14:50:56 GMT 2
Post by marius on Jul 2, 2011 14:50:56 GMT 2
Hi Nikki
You should be able to get 80/90 GL5 - very common gear oil and perfect for Nikita's gearbox.
I have GL4 in my box at the moment but I will change back to GL5 with my next oil change as I am not convinced from the start that this is the correct oil to use in the box.
Nothing wrong with 20/50 in the engine at all but if you can find a 15/40 Mineral oil EVEN BETTER (in my humble opinion ;D).
Marius
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spikes
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Jul 2, 2011 19:50:12 GMT 2
Post by spikes on Jul 2, 2011 19:50:12 GMT 2
Hi Nikki I have gone the Castrol GTX route and will change the filter only at 7500 km. This will allow me to stretch the change interval to 15000km to eventually doen engine oil change every 15000 km and all oils every 30000km
Spikes
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Nikki Lada
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Jul 3, 2011 17:11:48 GMT 2
Post by Nikki Lada on Jul 3, 2011 17:11:48 GMT 2
Thanks for your assistance, guys, and all the useful comments – I really appreciate it and now find myself learning about different oils, something I hadn’t given much thought to previously! The subject of overfilling the gearbox is something I’ve been meaning to raise for a while as this is also causing me great confusion! Ronnie, you indicate that you don’t overfill, and I think I’ve read elsewhere that Marius doesn’t either – something to do with oil seals popping? I have an incredible amount of respect for what you guys have to say but as I also respect the opinion of Andy, Baxter and the guys on the Lada UK forum who stress the importance of the overfill I find myself very confused! I’d be very interested to hear more about this and what other LOCSA members are doing. NIKKI
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Jul 3, 2011 17:23:52 GMT 2
Post by ronnie on Jul 3, 2011 17:23:52 GMT 2
Hi Nikki
I was in the recent past overfilling mine and then decided it was not correct for me. Partly because of the seals and partly because I don`t think it is necessary. After being showered with the oil being thrown out of Vincent`s gearbox, when the gear lever had been removed, I really do not think overfilling is needed. You must all decide for yourselves.
Ronnie
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fangsingh
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Jul 3, 2011 17:32:38 GMT 2
Post by fangsingh on Jul 3, 2011 17:32:38 GMT 2
I was also advised by the mech-man to not overfill, due to the strain that it will put on the seals. It makes sense to me...
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spikes
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Jul 3, 2011 18:18:58 GMT 2
Post by spikes on Jul 3, 2011 18:18:58 GMT 2
Gearbox NOT overfilled, but I do not use 5th below 80km/u. Soafr the gearbox is fine (10000km after the 5th gear cluster and ebaring were replaced Spikes
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Jul 3, 2011 19:42:35 GMT 2
Post by danie on Jul 3, 2011 19:42:35 GMT 2
There are obviously pros and cons to the subject of "overfilling" - which means filling the gearbox with 2 liter of oil, instead of 1.35 L - as subscribed by Autovaz - and advised widely out there. Personally, I prefer to fill the box with 2l liter, because I believe: 1. Nobody out there in his / her right mind, would advice anyone to use 2 lier of oil, if the subscribed quantity (1.35 liter) did not cause any problems before. 2. To my mind no quality oil seal (even the seals supplied by the Russians) should leak at the overfill, as advised widely (2 liter). 3. I believe that should the seals do leak at an overfill, (2 liter) - the seals are worn , and should be replaced anyway. Therefore I will never use less than 2 liter of oil, because of the possibility that the oil seals might be worn. 4. To my mind more oil could improve better cooling of the Lada Gearbox - because I know for a fact that too little oil can cause definite overheating problems in other applications. (Too much oil can cause overheating problems as well) Nobody needs to believe what I am trying to say - just make up your mind and be happy. Danie
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Jul 3, 2011 20:43:19 GMT 2
Post by marius on Jul 3, 2011 20:43:19 GMT 2
Hi Nikki and Danie
Believe it or not my gearbox is currently overfilled - but only to 1.5 liters. Like Ronnie and Vincent I have tested the gearbox at extremely low revs to see whether the 5th gear components do get enough oil and believe me they do!
At one stage I had 2 liters of oil in the box. The oil seal did not leak but the oil overflowed through the gear leaver boot at the top of the gearbox which is enough indication for me that there was way too much oil in the box. I lowered the oil level until no more oil came through the boot. Hence I now have about 1.5 liters in the box.
In my opinion I would not advise a 2liter overfill. In fact I would not advise overfilling any of the boxes nor the engine.
Like Spikes I try not to engage 5th gear below 80 km/h but some people even advise that you should only engage 5th gear at over 120 km/h and/or at 4500RPM!!!!!!! Yet again in my humble opinion this is total BS!
Marius
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Jul 3, 2011 20:58:07 GMT 2
Post by danie on Jul 3, 2011 20:58:07 GMT 2
Hi Marius
I think the oil leak which you are referring to (2 lit re overfill) might be caused by the speed at which you are usually driving your Lada.
Since day one I decided to go for a 2litre overfill - but I never drove my Lada faster than 100 Km/ h. Believe me - I have never experienced a similar oil leak which you are referring to.
Regards
Danie
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Jul 3, 2011 21:32:07 GMT 2
Post by marius on Jul 3, 2011 21:32:07 GMT 2
Hi Danie
I have stated many times that my cruising speed is normally 100-120km/h and that I NEVER push the Niva. Maximum revs is normally at around 3500RPM. I am very comfortable with the Niva at that speed.
Not too much difference in terms of RPM's at the 100km/h that you prefer to cruise - so I don't really think that it is the case.
I would think that when oil is starting to leak from the boot on the gear leaver - there is too much oil in the box.
Marius
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Jul 4, 2011 5:55:47 GMT 2
Post by danie on Jul 4, 2011 5:55:47 GMT 2
Hi Marius
If lower speed in general (100km/h instead of120) is not the reason why your Gearbox does have a leak there - and mine not, I think there could be another possibility which explains the difference:
The Gearlever "stick" has got a spring loaded "ball", which presses against the ball end Cap - and as far as I remember there is a washer between the Ball , and the Cap.
The ball, washer and end cap will obviously wear by time, and the worn components could cause a leak - specially with an overfill.
When I bought my Lada, I noticed that silicon , instead of standard gaskets has been used at some covers on my Ladas Gearbox - so I am quite convinced that the Gearbox has been rebuilt before.
So maybe the washer, or end cap has been replaced on my Lada's Gearbox - I do not know.
What I do know, is that I have already removed my Lada's Gearlever at least 5 times to change oil - and I have never noticed any trace of an oil leak at the gearlever. The reason for the many removals :
At the beginning I was very concerned about the yellow flaking in the Gearbox oil, and I have changed the oil after every 5000 km. Later on I started changing the oil after every 10 000 km.
Point is, I am happy with the 2 L overfill, and all owners should be free to experiment, and make their own decisions in this regard.
Regards
Danie
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Nikki Lada
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Jul 4, 2011 7:22:49 GMT 2
Post by Nikki Lada on Jul 4, 2011 7:22:49 GMT 2
Thanks for the response guys - this is just the kind of discussion I think we need to allow members ( especially mechanically challenged ones such as myself ;D ;D) to decide what to do. I have more questions which I need to think about but one that immediately comes to mind is has anyone actually experienced an oil seal popping due to the overfill? Thanks a stack NIKKI
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Jul 4, 2011 8:21:38 GMT 2
Post by marius on Jul 4, 2011 8:21:38 GMT 2
Hi Danie
I also use red silicone as a replacement gasket in that area and there is no oil leaking there. The oil was seeping through the smaller boot attached to the gear leaver. As far as I can tell there are no worn components on the gear leaver itself.
My observation is that too much oil is getting into the gear leaver mechanism and it escapes through the lower part of the boot. The boot itself is still in perfect condition.
Whilst on the subject of overfilling - you adapted your filler hole on the front diff in order to get more oil into the diff. I overfilled my diff slightly a couple of months ago and the seal on the left hand side is starting to leak. The seal is still fairly new - so perhaps overfilling is not such a great idea.
This is just my opinion on the mater after the question has been raised but if anyone wishes to overfill - so be it. There is no way that I can or will enforce a law forbidding people to overfill. You are right - members are free to make their own decisions.
Marius
PS - how many kms have you done since you overfilled?
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Jul 4, 2011 8:25:20 GMT 2
Post by marius on Jul 4, 2011 8:25:20 GMT 2
Nikki I believe Ronnie had some issues on one of the seals on his gear box - and at the time I believe he overfilled.
I now have signs of a leaking seal on the front diff after overfilling slightly (100ml).
Marius
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Jul 4, 2011 9:23:50 GMT 2
Post by ronnie on Jul 4, 2011 9:23:50 GMT 2
Hi All I can`t remember if I was still overfilling the gearbox with oil when I had the issue with AFTERMARKET oil seals. However, I for one will only use original seals after my own experience. If you want to use aftermarket seals I suggest you only use them where they are easy to replace and certainly not in places like the front of the gearbox where there is a lot of stripping involved to replace them. I will continue to fill to the correct level, as After looking at the oil being thrown around inside the gearbox I believe there is adequate lubrication. I would advise all to make sure the lock washer that "Marius`s pet lock washer" is fitted as I also think it is a very important component. Overfilling, dirt, and poor quality of the surface where the seal runs are the major cause of seal failure. As far as speed is concerned, I will happily drive at 120kmh and consider the Niva quite capable of this speed. When I bought Ari`s Niva it was regularly driven long distances (1000kms) at 120+ and suffered no damage or problems. At times it was 1000kms non stop. You are all welcome to make up your own mind and do as you think fit. I do not do much mileage now, some of us do none, and some of us use the vehicle every day. It would be interesting to have feedback from the "everyday" users . Ronnie
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