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Post by ronnie on Feb 1, 2010 18:55:15 GMT 2
Hi all.
Hercules I ordered an after market window winder mechanism as you suggested and agree the quality is not too good. I have spent 3 hrs today and am no closer to getting it installed and working. I think the major problem is when the winder is bolted to the door the "scissors" run parallel to the winder but the glass runs at an angle and heads to the outside bottom of the door putting a lot of strain on the mechanism.Don"t know If you or any one has any suggestions which might help.
Regards
Ronnie
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Post by danie on Feb 1, 2010 19:36:14 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie
Hopefully somebody will be able to help.
It will be great if you could send some close pics of the meganism - it could be helpful to other members who might consider a similar installation in future.
Many thanks
Danie
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Post by ronnie on Feb 1, 2010 20:19:30 GMT 2
Hi Danie
I will gladly take photos If I can get it to work properly. At the moment I cannot see how this is a viable solution. The farther down the glass goes the more it pulls the scissors out of line, and the winder gets harder to turn. This is why the mechanism does not last. Tomorrow I will open the other door panel as it still has the Russian winder.
Regards
Ronnie
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Post by Ari Bezuidenhout on Feb 1, 2010 20:32:54 GMT 2
The Russian window winder setup uses a steel cable and pulleys , which works as long as the cable doesn't cross or knot
Regards Ari
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Post by ronnie on Feb 1, 2010 20:39:51 GMT 2
Hi Ari
I asume the origional winder is not available as Centurion Lada fit Toyota venture winders but I do not at this time consider it as acceptable. I will enquire tomorrow re origional.
Regards
Ronnie
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Hercules
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Post by Hercules on Feb 1, 2010 20:50:38 GMT 2
Ronnie, I fixed mine yesterday. As you say, the winders are not a good quality. What I did, was to remove the two brackets/holders that hold the window and turn them around so that they are closer to the meganism, move them so they operate perfect on the window winding up and down. I marked them on the window and fit them back on the window with silicon and closed the window so that the silicon can dry and set. My window operate smoothly now.
The problem with the meganism is that the lower the window get the toughtner the meganism turn. Over a period of time the plate over the back of the big gear tends to bend away and then the meganism start slipping when closing the window.
Hope you can get your's sorted out, as the meganism operates very smoothly and easy once the set up is correct.
The russian cable mechanism problem is that the cable cut through the top pulley located under the plate above the door panel over time. According to Jan, the only way to fixed it is to take the door to a panelbeater to split the door and then replace the pulley, re-assemble the door and respray it. It is very costly.
Regards.
Hercules.
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Post by Ari Bezuidenhout on Feb 1, 2010 20:51:05 GMT 2
I've heard that nissan 1400 bakkie window winder handles also fit on the lada, but have not tried it myself
Regards Ari
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Post by ronnie on Feb 2, 2010 8:59:36 GMT 2
Hi Hercules
When I stripped the window I did check the brackets to make sure the angles involved were as small as possible. One of the brackets on the glass was pointing inward and one pointing out!!!. I have made both point in. The main problem is the glass gets further away from the line of the scissors the lower the glass goes. I Am sure the pirate winder would last longer if it was not under strain.
Regards
Ronnie.
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Post by ronnie on Feb 2, 2010 9:05:37 GMT 2
Hi Ari
I ame sure quite a few winders will be adaptable but they all work with scissors and will al have the problem of the angle of operation. Will have another session today hope I have more luck than yesterday.
Regards
Ronnie
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Post by ronnie on Feb 2, 2010 16:39:56 GMT 2
Hi Hercules
I have managed to get it working in an acceptable manner. I still don't think it is the best way to fix the window. I agree with your understanding of the problem. I ended up using the existing winder as I have already managed to break the new one. The splines on the existing one are badly worn I think someone has used pliers to open it at one time. now that it is moving reasonably well I have put a new handle on and instead of using the "C" clip I have drilled and tapped a M4 thread into the winder and screwed the winder handle on. I also opened the passenger side and had a look at the original. If you stripped the door completely with the glass out and providing you could get or make a new pulley I reckon with a bit of ingenuity you could make a bracket with a new pulley and bolt or rivet it into place with no damage. The pulleys are mounted onto the inner skin of the door so if you wanted to weld the outside would not be damaged. Thank goodness it is now working.
Regards.
Ronnie
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Hercules
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Post by Hercules on Feb 2, 2010 20:47:32 GMT 2
Ronnie, I'm glad you got it working. The aftermarket winder handles are also scrap even the custom aluminuim ones, they also keep stripping or break. I still intend to go the electrical route on the winders.
Regards.
Hercules.
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rooikoos
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Post by rooikoos on Feb 3, 2010 10:25:25 GMT 2
nissan 1400 winder handles work perfectly, i have them in my lada, and they are dirt cheap to replace
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Post by ronnie on Feb 3, 2010 15:13:48 GMT 2
Hi Rooikoos,
There are probably a lot of winder handles with the same splines, but the main problem is the winding mechanism inside the doors. It would appear most people use Toyota venture parts but the mechanism is under strain when the window is fully open. I have mine working now but it was a battle. It took me about 6 hrs.
Regards
Ronnie
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Post by hotstuff on Feb 3, 2010 21:44:02 GMT 2
eish here is one a merc electric or manual window winder mechanism also cable driven but very strong and mounts easy. so this other chap i i met said who owns a lada. well i will look into it. it's a 1996 merc e series mechanism.
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Post by danie on Feb 12, 2010 18:14:36 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie / Hercules
I just wonder if the older model Ladas (with small front door side windows) would have less problems with window angles, and if electric winders would be easier to install on the "square" front windows ?
Regards
Danie
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Post by ronnie on Feb 12, 2010 19:45:24 GMT 2
Hi Danie
I think the only difference with the smaller window will be weight. The angles will be the same. The electric winders will be the same on both as it drives the winder in place of the handle. The electric winder from Autostylin is actually of very good quality and works very well and has plenty of torque. I ended up spacing some of the aftermarket winder parts, that attaches to the inner skin of the door further in to the door to minimize the angles, but you have to be careful or the mechanism clashes with its self. IT is an awkward job, and is time consuming. I did take photos but it is difficult to see much due to the small openings in the inside of the door. I also think the electric conversion may help as you then have a steady drive as opposed to your hand jerking the handle around. Perhaps Hercules has some thoughts as he also has had problems.
Regards
Ronnie.
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Hercules
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Post by Hercules on Feb 12, 2010 20:21:39 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie & Danie.
I am so fedup with the poor quality after market spares. My winder stripped again.
The problem is the back plate that hold the big gear in place bend outwards due to poor/inferior metals been used to manufacture these components. the problem is also that these winders has to much play which result that the window falls over to the front and increase the tension on the winder system and pushing the back plate outwards.
I am busy looking into a complete different type of electric winder system. The system I looking for, must have a solid slide which can be mounted in the centre of the window. On the Baxter webside is picture of the type of winder I am looking for.
As soon as I get something that work I will report back on this fustrating issue.
Regards.
Hercules.
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Post by Ari Bezuidenhout on Feb 12, 2010 20:35:35 GMT 2
I feel for you Hercules, I spent a whole weekend trying to fix my cable winder system and it is not the most comfortable position to work in.
Regards Ari
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Post by ronnie on Feb 13, 2010 11:54:06 GMT 2
Hi hercules.
You have my sympathy I know how you feel. If I had to pay for the time I have spent on mine I would need to have a bank loan. You could try spacing the parts fixed to the inner skin by about 8 MM, a M8 nut is about right, this helps a little bit to reduce the angle as you reach the bottom.
Regards
Ronnie
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Hercules
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Post by Hercules on Feb 13, 2010 18:01:37 GMT 2
Hallo Ronnie.
Got it fixed and work again, do not know how long. My problem is the top half of the window winding, keep pushing the big gear out because the window tilting forward. The front guide inside the door is ajustable, so adjust it tighter towards the window to stop the tilting. Now the window stays upright and hope it will keep on working.
Regards.
Hercules.
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Post by ronnie on Feb 13, 2010 20:35:18 GMT 2
Hi Hercules.
Glad it is working again, I also found when playing with the winder, what makes a difference to the window running up and down vertically is the position the 4 screws are in which hold the winder section to the door. On mine whoever worked on it originally ended up with big holes for the 4 screws. If you leave the screws loose as you turn the handle the window moves into the vertical position I then tightened the screws and it seems to have stayed there. I see Ari`s also had problems with his. You would not think such a simple thing could cause such grief.
Regards
Ronnie
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Post by ronnie on Feb 13, 2010 20:45:02 GMT 2
Danie,
On the small window models you will not have the same problem with the window falling forward like Hercules is experiencing due to both the front and back edges being long and not one short at the front which seems to make the window want to fall forward.
Regards
Ronnie
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Post by danie on Feb 14, 2010 7:13:35 GMT 2
Hi Hercules / Ronnie
Thanks for your comments - at least all of us now know what to expect , before buying a set of window winders.
Ronnie, I also thought that the front pillar / frame would prevent the smaller (square) window from falling forward. To my mind, it sounds like with less weight, and with the front pillar being more supportive, the smaller "square" front windows would give less problems in general.
The small front (fanlight / quarter light) windows seems to be a definite "bonus" (for cooling purposes), and I am thinking of getting hold of a set of small windows from a stripped Lada.
Regards
Danie
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Post by Ari Bezuidenhout on Feb 14, 2010 8:30:53 GMT 2
Hi Danie
The fanlight windows definately work well. It was -+ 35 C yesterday in Pretoria and I had no need for an a/c as long as my speed was more than about 25 km/h.
I would say that if you could scavenge them somewhere it would really be worthwhile.
Regards Ari
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Post by ronnie on Feb 14, 2010 9:15:23 GMT 2
Hi Danie.
If you are going to look for quarter light windows for your Lada it might be better to look for complete doors in good condition. There will be numerous differences to the chrome surround, the door rubbers. and perhaps the fixings for the new front window runner inside the doors. I would imagine the pulleys for the window wires at the front could also be in a different position. I still want an Air con there is no substitute.
Regards
Ronnie
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Post by danie on Feb 14, 2010 10:18:05 GMT 2
Thanks Ari / Ronnie I agree - it should be better to look for complete doors. I also dream about an aircon .......... unfortunately two trips to the US during the past two years have financially crippled me a bit........ Regards Danie
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Post by hotstuff on Feb 14, 2010 21:44:12 GMT 2
ok so no one is reading my messages anymore as i said the merc winders work well and are excellent it cost around R1500 for a pair and excludes motor so if you can find second hand they work well i am going to try and fit them on mine have a pair available just need motor cable driven but of high quality. and motor strong as an ox....by the way any merc window winding mechanism will work even the manual just need to make new mounting positions.
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Post by ronnie on Feb 15, 2010 7:59:00 GMT 2
Hi Mike I do look at your reply`s and am waiting for you to fit your`s and report back. There are no scrap yards near me, at least I have not been able to find any. This makes it impossible for me to look at these things to see what is available to adapt.
Regards
Ronnie
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Post by danie on Feb 15, 2010 17:50:53 GMT 2
Hi Mike
Sorry to hear about your arm - hope you are O K.
I think all of us were just waiting for your feedback after the Merc winders have been installed. If your installation is successful and without problems, I am sure more owners would be interested in a similar mod.
So please send us more information, whenever possible.
Regards
Danie
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Post by hotstuff on Feb 15, 2010 20:19:34 GMT 2
hi danie they are very similar but the aftermarket electric winders are rubbish on any car. the ladas window is to heavy for the kit thats why a retrofit vw or merc even a toyota kit might work better.
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