Ventzel
Senior Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 412
Registered: Aug 3, 2010 22:30:24 GMT 2
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Post by Ventzel on Nov 13, 2010 23:30:41 GMT 2
Sorry to tell you but no one oil seal in the entire vehichle is replaceable with any aftermarket one.
1) They all are not standard size. One exception - the rear crankshaft seal. 2) They almost all have inner scratches to keep the oil in, i.e. like slinger. The scratches have directions - left or right. If you mix them - T/box, difs, driveshafts - they will suck the oil out instead to keep it in. Quickly.
Sorry again to the lovers of modifications.
V.
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Post by marius on Nov 14, 2010 6:22:32 GMT 2
How tight must the nut on the rear of the box be? 66.8 - 82.3 Nm But it means squat if you don't fit the real lockwasher.
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Post by marius on Nov 14, 2010 6:25:47 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie Looks like Ventz might have the answer Let us know how it turns out. Regards Marius
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Post by ronnie on Nov 14, 2010 8:42:36 GMT 2
Hi Ventz We did not have a supplier before who took an interest in this forum. We had to source parts from where we could . You will be able to change this, which can only help the members and you . I will come and visit you one of these days. Ronnie
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Post by ronnie on Nov 14, 2010 8:46:43 GMT 2
Hi Marius
According to Ventz there are 2 different types of nuts used for the rear of the crank. One has the thin washer with the lock tab and the other one has a thick flat spring washer.
Ronnie
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Post by Charles on Nov 14, 2010 9:05:45 GMT 2
If i make the rear nut 80N.m the gearbox is so tight that even in neutral if i turn the input shaft the output shaft turns.
Charles
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Post by Ari Bezuidenhout on Nov 14, 2010 9:11:24 GMT 2
Try 66N.m then.
Ari
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Post by Charles on Nov 14, 2010 10:34:17 GMT 2
I think it is now close to that.
Charles
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Post by ronnie on Nov 14, 2010 12:52:39 GMT 2
Hi Marius
There appears to be more to the lock tab washer for the nut on the gearbox output shaft. The part number for the nut is different depending on the washer used. IE thin tin washer with tabs or thick spring washer. If you use the thin tin washer there are other parts which go with it. Perhaps Ventz can clarify what the correct procedure is and what to use.
Ronnie
PS I discovered this as I wanted a new nut and ventz needed to know which one.
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Post by ronnie on Nov 14, 2010 18:44:23 GMT 2
Hi Darryn Just to let you know you are holding up the repairs to my gearbox!. I want a new nut for the gear box output shaft as I do not like the look of the threads on mine. Unfortunately you bought the last one that Ventz had in stock . new stock not due in before the end of November. ;D Ronnie
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Ventzel
Senior Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 412
Registered: Aug 3, 2010 22:30:24 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
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Post by Ventzel on Nov 15, 2010 0:27:18 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie,
Until 1998 - nut with thin tin lockwasher, spiral spring and round centering seal into the CV joint. After 1998 - different nut with thick flat spring washer and cone centering seal into the CV joint.
Both systems are replaceable.
V.
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Post by marius on Nov 15, 2010 7:57:20 GMT 2
Hi all My info on this is the following: The spring washer is only to be used for the first 3000km's on a new car - after that the spring washer should be replaced by the thin lockwasher. This never happened in SA The spring was discontinued as it was found to be unnecessary to keep the nut in place. The nut is given in the repair manual as M20x1.0. There are two part numbers but they are essentially the same nut. There is only ONE (main) reason why the 5th gear jumps - the nut comes loose resulting in very expensive repairs. There is only ONE thing that will keep the nut in place - the thin lockwasher that cost virtualy nothing. The thin lockwasher works very well on my 2000 model Niva - the spring washer, Loctite etc - did not. Regards Marius
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Ventzel
Senior Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 412
Registered: Aug 3, 2010 22:30:24 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
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Post by Ventzel on Nov 15, 2010 9:00:05 GMT 2
Hi Marius,
Your info in not correct.
And apologies for Darryn on behalf of Ronnie. Jonh du Toit bought the gearbox nut, not Darryn. It was my wrong info.
V.
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Post by ronnie on Nov 15, 2010 9:41:19 GMT 2
Hi Darryn
SORRY ;D ;D ;D
Ronnie
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Post by ronnie on Nov 15, 2010 9:44:31 GMT 2
Hi Marius
I would agree with you that the locking tab washer should be the most secure. Perhaps Ventz will give us his opinion on this and his reasons.
Ronnie
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Post by marius on Nov 15, 2010 12:45:21 GMT 2
Hi Ventz
Even if my "info is not correct" - any reason why you would not fit the thin lock washer on any Niva manufactured after 1998?
If I am not mistaken - Ari's Niva is a pre-99 model. I am 100% convinced it was not fitted with the thin lock washer - but Ari would know better.
There are many other pre-99 owners on this forum - I am 100% convinced they also don't have the thin lock washer fitted.
The thin lock washer is not factory fitted and the thick spring washer was supposed to be replaced by the thin lock washer after the 3000km run-in period, which is required on the Niva.
I do not know of any new Niva that was returned after 3000km's to replace all fluids and other parts - like the thick spring washer.
Regards Marius
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Ventzel
Senior Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 412
Registered: Aug 3, 2010 22:30:24 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
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Post by Ventzel on Nov 16, 2010 1:04:25 GMT 2
Hi Marius, let's think logically - which vehicle producer on the planet will put in his operation manual request for gearbox repair after 3000 km. This will kill him and lead to bankruptcy.
It is very simple - after 1998 they design new shape nuts, washers and rubber centering seals. Both systems work and their parts can't be mixed. By my opinion the thin lockwasher better secure the nut then the flat spring washer. Definitely it is factory fitted and exist in each catalogue. What about the all Lada owners without the lockwasher - it is also easy to explain. Their gearboxes have been repaired and the cowboys broke it or forgot to fit it back or decided not to fit it back.
V.
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Post by marius on Nov 16, 2010 7:06:49 GMT 2
Hi Ventz It was very common for older generation vehicles to have a run-in period. The Niva was no exception. The following is from the Niva Maintanance Manual: "The car should be serviced every 10,000 Km. However, during the initial period of operation, when working-in of all the units and mechanisms takes place, the car should be serviced after covering the first 2,000-3,000 Km. This will ensure superb performance and long service life of the car." As you pointed out - the thin lockwasher is indicated in the parts catalogue BUT more importantly - there is no indication of the flat spring washer in the parts manual which tells me that it is a run-in part. I agree there were many cowboys out there who did a lot of damage to the Niva - but it is highly unlikely that all of them would have forgotten to refit the thin lockwasher and instead replaced it with exactly the same thick springwasher. Just a final thought - even if the shape of the nut has changed - the base and the size of the nut remains the same - you would have no problem fitting the thin lockwasher. My car is proof of that. Hopefully this has resolved the issue Regards Marius
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Post by danie on Nov 17, 2010 6:42:12 GMT 2
Hi Marius
Your explanation makes a lot of sense and I simply do not agree that fingers can be pointed at professional mechanics who did not replace the washers afterwards.
Just think about it - which car manufacturer on this planet will list a part in their part catalogs if the part does not exist ?
Also, it is common knowledge that during the past few years quite a few well known car manufacturers have called some of their models back to correct inherent problems. After all, I don't think Autovaz is any better than some of the well known companies who have recently called their cars back to solve inherent problems.
Danie
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Post by marius on Nov 17, 2010 6:48:34 GMT 2
Comparing the 2007 Spare Part Manual with the 2003 Manual. I got hold of bits of the 2007 Manual when I ordered my 5th gear replacement parts from Russia - after I had some questions regarding the new parts. The main difference is on the output shaft - notice the splines. Also notice that the spring that fits behind the nut is not present in the 2007 Manual. The thin lock washer is present in both these manuals. Attachments:
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Post by marius on Nov 17, 2010 6:49:54 GMT 2
Here is as in the 2003 Manual... Attachments:
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Post by marius on Nov 17, 2010 6:58:03 GMT 2
Also of interest is the change with regard to the 5th and reverse gears. This is quite an improvement over the older parts with all the gears fitting on the splines instead of being held in place by the little key. Here are the gears as in the 2007 Manual... Attachments:
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Post by marius on Nov 17, 2010 7:02:52 GMT 2
Here is as in the 2003 Manual... Interestingly the oil deflector is replaced by what is refered to in the 2007 Manual as a thrust washer. There are many other smaller differences. Attachments:
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Ventzel
Senior Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 412
Registered: Aug 3, 2010 22:30:24 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
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Post by Ventzel on Nov 17, 2010 8:58:36 GMT 2
OK Marius,
If you are happy with your decision - let it be. I'm tired to argue.
Just some facts:
> No one Niva after 1998 came with the old system. Before 1998 they are all with the old systems. All Lada Niva 1700 gearboxes are identical. > Why is still not indicated into the catalogue you can ask your suppliers. > The oil have to be changed in the engine and transmission after first 2500-3000 km, I agree - but this is so called routine oil change or service, not repair. To strip half of the transmission to replace a washer after 3000 km sounds beyond belief. The gearbox is already run-out and to release the nut which ensure the all tightness inside, means to start again from the beginning. And who can imagine that a washer outside gears has significant role for the run-in of the all parts inside gearbox for the first 2-3000 km and needs to be throw away afterwards. > No one of the parts importers in RSA since 1996 thought about the thin washer - it is too little and simple to mention (but actually very important) - another reason for the absence from the cars now. This washer is for single use. I've got left 1 or 2 and keep them for my car - it's model 1997. > The parts of both system must not mix. The spring flat washer is ~1.5 mm thick and this thickness is important for the all tightness of the gearbox-intermediate shaft joint. If you have the tin thin washer instead of the thick one, your vibrations there are more than average. > Read very carefully all your manuals and service books. If there is not written in black and white about replacement of the washers, this remains only your idea. > Definitely point your fingers at the professionals in the garages. They are not specialists, they are people with tools. Not all of them but majority. It's a horror there and you are happy not to know what they do to your cars. Two years I used to work as group service manager in Pinetown and I know what I'm talking about. > No one product of AvtoVAZ is called back to correct inherent problems till today. That not makes the car the best in the world, just a clear fact only.
Ventz
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Post by ronnie on Nov 17, 2010 9:23:53 GMT 2
Hi Ventz
As the lock tab washer is so thin would it be permisable to use it as well as the thick lock washer ?.
Ronnie
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Post by marius on Nov 17, 2010 9:35:00 GMT 2
Sorry Ronnie I know you did not direct the question to me but the thick spring washer is not a lock washer at all (and that is the real problem).
There is no way you can use both.
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Post by marius on Nov 17, 2010 9:47:11 GMT 2
Hi Ventz No argument - just an open discussion. We might disagree on some things which is fine. However we both agree on ONE VERY IMPORTANT THING - the thin lockwasher is a vital component in the gearbox. That is all that really matters. Just a correction on your last post - I never refered to "repair" only that the car should be serviced after the first 2000-3000kms but the point here is that I do not know of any Niva that was serviced at 2000-3000kms by any of the dealers. Anyway - don't you think it is strange that the thick spring washer does not appear in any of the manuals. There is not even a parts number for it - but yet all Nivas in SA are fitted with one? Regards Marius PS- locsa.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=technical&action=display&thread=114
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Post by ronnie on Nov 17, 2010 12:42:32 GMT 2
Hi Marius
There is a problem as now Ventz says you will have more vibration problems if you use the wrong mix of nuts, washers, etc. I have enough vibration problems as it is with out adding to it. The " locking" washer has "teeth" which face in the correct direction to inhibit loosening, and is in fact 3.5 mm thick over the teeth. Looking at it I cannot see why a thin locking tab washer cannot be used as well. After all I would only be adding half a mm as opposed to subtracting 3 mm. Now what ?
Ronnie
Ronnie
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Post by ronnie on Nov 17, 2010 13:20:40 GMT 2
Hi All
I made a tab locking washer previous to this and was not completely happy with the small amount of splines available for the tab washer. I have now made this tab washer which locates on the 3 sides of the flange. If no advice is forthcoming to the contrary I intend to use this as well as the thick locking washer. That way I am only changing the original by half a mm.
Ronnie
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Post by marius on Nov 17, 2010 14:21:31 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie
I was looking for the spring washer - but could not find it. The reason why I would not use it together with the spring washer is - if you fit the thin lock washer in front of the spring washer - you would not be able to bend the lock washer back over the spring washer onto the nut.
If you fit it at the back of the spring washer the teeth would not be long enough to slide into the splines/key on the shaft/flange.
There is absolutely no reason why you would need the spring washer in my opinion - it is not even anywhere in any manual.
If you can't get the lock washer to bite both ways - on the splines and the nut - you might as well not fit anything.
With regard to Ventz response to vibration - I picked up no "extra" vibration at all when I fitted the lock washer - but I can speak only for myself.
Regards Marius
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