|
Post by Charles on Nov 24, 2011 9:26:46 GMT 2
This is starting to get nuts.
Charles
|
|
|
Post by marius on Nov 24, 2011 9:40:07 GMT 2
Absalutely! I see we had almost the exact same argument in the Gearbox repair threat. If someone states that in an argument "The information I have given you is correct. I do not make things up, I am always sure of my facts." I would like to see those facts. Marius
|
|
|
Post by marius on Nov 24, 2011 10:49:00 GMT 2
Here the nut on the 1600 4 speed Niva can be seen on the left bottom corner of the picture together with the lock washer >> Marius
|
|
spikes
Moderator
Posts: 3,689
Location: Mpumalanga
Town: Nelspruit
Registered: Apr 19, 2010 19:39:51 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by spikes on Nov 24, 2011 10:49:28 GMT 2
Maybe this post could be copied to "Humour on the forum" as well.
Spikes
|
|
|
Post by marius on Nov 24, 2011 10:50:07 GMT 2
Here is the reason why I believe the shoulder of the nut is different from the later nut >>> Marius
|
|
|
Post by marius on Nov 24, 2011 10:54:42 GMT 2
Very funny Spikes! ;D Here is the nut that is fitted on the 5speed gearbox >> Marius
|
|
|
Post by marius on Nov 24, 2011 11:16:35 GMT 2
AND finally in conclusion - here you can see that same nut in the previous post and the lock washer being fitted in one picture. Marius
|
|
|
Post by marius on Nov 24, 2011 11:20:31 GMT 2
I would rather drive around with a little vibration exactly the same as Charles described a few posts back, (who probably still has the spring washer fitted) than having to repair my 5th gear on a regular basis because the nut has come undone.
Marius
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Nov 24, 2011 12:20:27 GMT 2
Hi Marius
Just remember you were the one who did not believe there was 2 nuts and were requesting proof that they exist. I simply told you they do exist as both Vincent and I have been shown them by Ventz, but you still do not want to believe. What more can I say.
Ronnie
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Nov 24, 2011 12:31:36 GMT 2
Hi Charles.
As far as the nuts go I simply passed on the information as presented to me by Ventz. Danie has just received a kit from Pavel with the spring which goes behind the seal. This was deleted long ago, so it would be interesting to have an explanation from someone who knows. perhaps it is like the nut which does not exist.
Ronnie
|
|
|
Post by marius on Nov 24, 2011 12:47:25 GMT 2
I have never seen any other nut on the Niva than the one I have. Probably older Nivas (1600's?) might have a different nut but the Nivas imported into SA by CMH's only has one type of nut - as far as I know If that is not the case I would like to see proof ;D Marius This is my original response - not denying the second nut, but merely stating that I have not seen any other nut than the one I got and that older Nivas might have a different nut (i.e. pre-97). I still would like to see evidence indicating something other than my original post ;D Marius The above two posts is what I said - clearly not denying that a second nut exists. I even stated that older Nivas (1600's?) might have a different nut ( which turned out to be correct from real evidence I subsequently provided) but the Nivas imported into SA by CMH's {and most probably Vanchester as well} only has one type of nut - as far as I know. This indeed seems to be the case unless somebody can give real evidence to the contrary. You seem to have an issue with the lock washer and the spring washer and as I have now graphically illustrated there should be no issue at all. This argument started with a question Nikki directed at me. Nikki has a 5speed box and I am 99.99% sure she has the same nut that I illustrated as the 5speed nut above. Lets not go around in circles - yet again - unless you can give me some real evidence. Marius
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Nov 24, 2011 15:19:53 GMT 2
Hi Marius
I have made no mention of the 1600 at any time. I have given you the information I got from Ventz which you do not want to believe. You also do not know what the Niva`s from Vanchester had. In future any information which I am given which may have been of use to the members I will simply keep to myself then I will not be in the situation where what I pass on is called into question, especially when it comes from Ventz who I am sure knows more than any of the rest of us.
Ronnie
|
|
|
Post by marius on Nov 24, 2011 16:19:54 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie I know you never mentioned the 1600 (I did). I am not going to question Ventz's knowledge but I have to tell you he knew nothing about the 2007 manual and the relevant parts when I questioned him in the Gearbox Repair Thread. Clearly Ventz has a vast amount of knowledge with regard to the Niva and I cannot pretend to know anything close to what he does - however he did not design the Niva and is also not a development engineer on the Niva in Russia. I know that Ladas post 1997 got the new 5th speed gearbox nut. Vanchester imports were mainly post 1997 - or in or about that time - if I am not mistaken. There may well have been a few 4 speed Nivas with the old nut - but I do not know and it doesn't realy matter. What matters is that I answered Nikki's question and I believe I answered it correctly - that there is no need for her to get a different nut in order to fit the lock washer.I choose to freely share any knowledge that I can gather with all our members. Anybody can differ from my opinion but please don't tell me you know differently, but can't produce any evidence to support your argument. On the other hand I did some research - posted the relevant evidence to support my case - and learned something in the process. Marius
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Nov 24, 2011 18:26:27 GMT 2
Hi Marius
If I personally give information I will back it up. I clearly told you where the info came from. You chose to dispute it. In the future I will certainly not pass on information from others to have it rubbished. I consider the likes of Ventz who repairs Nivas every day to have more knowledge than ordinary members. When I ordered a new nut from Ventz long ago I had to explain what I had so he could supply the correct one. He did not ask for nothing. You also can`t state for sure there is no other nut. At least I and Vincent have seen it and it exists.
Ronnie
|
|
|
Post by marius on Nov 24, 2011 19:19:09 GMT 2
Does the nut Ventz showed you look anything like this nut? Marius
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Nov 24, 2011 20:13:05 GMT 2
Hi Marius
I can`t tell you now what it looked like (exactly) Both nuts were more or less the same with the exception of the height. The parts catalog also shows a different nut for the spring washer and the lock washer, so I don`t know how you can say there is only one nut. I exclude the 1600 as I know nothing about them so I will not comment. The longer nut makes up for the difference between the thickness difference between the lock washer and the spring washer. If the nut used for the spring washer is used with the lock washer the seal is not properly located as the taper on the front of the nut is too short to position the seal inside the front of the flange.
Ronnie
|
|
|
Post by marius on Nov 24, 2011 20:35:40 GMT 2
Ronnie just answer the question. I had some questions earlier which you also did not answer. Does the nut that Ventz showed you looks like this? >> Or if it is difficult to tell from the pic - show me in a pic what the nut looks like. Marius
|
|
Ventzel
Senior Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 412
Registered: Aug 3, 2010 22:30:24 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by Ventzel on Nov 24, 2011 21:09:36 GMT 2
Great stuff!!! The forum is hot again without my help! Three pages of sparky discussion for one day....>>>
In general > Ronnie is right, Marius is wrong - no any comments, just facts. I explained before all that nut story somewhere here but as usual nobody listened; the explanation is still somewhere around. They are two different systems and can not be mixed; both of them work. Doesn't matter is the car 1600 or 1700 or 4-speed or 5-speed. The gearbox flange is the same, the intermediate shaft hole is the same.
Marius, don't thrust too much the Russians, especially when somebody advice you to replace the whole output shaft to accommodate the new system nut. I like Russians and when they consider you as a friend they are ready to die for you, but I do not like to do business with them after the democracy (eventually!!??) came over there.
Regards
Ventz
|
|
|
Post by marius on Nov 24, 2011 21:26:39 GMT 2
Hi Ventz It is very easy to say - "you are right and you are wrong". I can except that I am wrong but I would like to see a picture of all three these nuts to clarify the matter. If you can't post the pictures due to technical reasons you can send them to me via my email and I will gladly post them here to sort this question once and for all. I trust the Russian people like I trust my Niva I never trust politicians and businessmen Regards Marius
|
|
|
Post by marius on Nov 24, 2011 22:02:47 GMT 2
OR Vincent if you can find it in your garage I would like to see a pick of the difference between the two nuts. However it is now apparent that there are indeed three such nuts! ;D
AND I thought I was going nuts in the gearbox thread!!! ;D
Marius
|
|
|
Post by marius on Nov 25, 2011 6:22:06 GMT 2
Hi Ventz
I did send you an email in this regard but I am sure many members are just as curious as I to see the new system that you mentioned.
I think it is in everybody's interest that we see an actual picture of the system that you refer to. I would actually like to see the difference between the three systems.
Nikki asked the question and now it seems that there is a possibility that she (or anybody else) might have a different system than the one I have in mind. It is therefor quite important that we have clarity on this matter.
It would also be very helpful if you can supply the part numbers for all the components on the new system that you mentioned if someone would like to order the system in future. I know I would if I think the system that you mention is better that the other two.
Marius
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Nov 25, 2011 9:03:15 GMT 2
Hi Marius
It is weeks since I saw the 2 nuts so if I said to you it looks like the pic I would not be certain. The only difference that was immediately obvious was the height. The profiles on the end from memory were the same or very similar. The basic difference was the depth due to the difference in thickness between the lock washer and the spring washer. I can`t find the old spring washer that was on mine but it was very thick. Vincent is not in Pennington at present but i will get him to find them when he returns home. The only problem here is to find anything in his garage requires a search party ;D ;D ;D. I can`t really give any other information on the nuts except your post to use loctite as well.
Ronnie
|
|
Ventzel
Senior Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 412
Registered: Aug 3, 2010 22:30:24 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by Ventzel on Nov 25, 2011 9:36:27 GMT 2
OK Marius,
I'll post a picture and some remarks later, probably during the night when I have more spare time. With respect for you, but I clearly indicated recently that I'll not participate on the technical sections of the forum more. At the beginning I was happy to share my experience, now I'm not. The reasons are well known.
"I never trust politicians and businessmen" --->>> I'm a businessman. To do it, or not to do it?
Ventz
|
|
|
Post by marius on Nov 25, 2011 10:07:09 GMT 2
Hi Ventz ;D
My remark about politicians and businessmen was in relation to what you said about not trusting the Russians. I trust the people but I don't trust their politicians and businessmen but I have a feeling that this is can be applied universally. I have done business with you and I trust and respect you.
I think it would be in everyone's interest if you can shed some light on the matter. I have searched the manuals and the internet far and wide and could find two only systems.
As far as I can gather - one is for the 5 speed gearbox, which include a nut exactly like the one I got. Behind the nut is a rubber sealing ring and a rubber centering cap.
The other is for the 4 speed gearbox that has a nut with a different shoulder, a spring, a metal centering ring and a circlip.
I have illustrated both of these systems and I would like to see how the system you mention differs from the other two.
Thanks in advance Marius
|
|
|
Post by marius on Nov 25, 2011 10:09:52 GMT 2
No worries Ronnie Marius
|
|
Ventzel
Senior Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 412
Registered: Aug 3, 2010 22:30:24 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by Ventzel on Nov 26, 2011 1:06:41 GMT 2
Hi Marius, I'm not sure if the photo will emerge because again and again I have some problems to upload photos; now it refuses to be saved as JPG format. Before I did it, today not. Will try to send it as is. Am I really not capable to do it or my computers makes a jokes or the web is not users friendly? If doesn't appears I will e-mail it to you and please you add it later. On the top row is the old nut system: 1. Thin tin lock washer with teeth going inside the shaft splines and board going around the side of hexagon (one side is enough to bend). Cat. part number 2101-1701243 2. Two step nut - one step for the spring. Cat. part number 2121-1701244 3. Spiral spring Cat. part number 2121-1701248 4. Centering seal (in the catalogue is indicated as "centering seal") - cylindrical shape with groove to accomodate the spring. Cat. part number 2121-1701245 5. Centering ring - metal Cat. part number 2101-1701247 6. Circlip - not on the photo, I don't keep it but everyone can find the groove at the end of the shaft where it has been in the old times. Cat. part number 11066276 This is the nut system used in Niva 1600. With launch of Niva 1700 the metal centering ring was replaced with rubber centering ring - see the solitary rubber cap on the middle row. The circlip is not in use more. All other parts remained the same >> till 1998. On the bottom row is the new nut system - since 1999. 1. Thick flat spring washer. 2. One step nut with bigger OD. 3. Centering seal half cylindrical / half cone. 4. Centering ring - the same rubber cap as above Cat. part number 21213-1701247 I don't know the cat. parts numbers of the new details. In all catalogues I have the numbers are the same as the old ones despite the parts are different. That fact could bring the confusion with parts orders but till now I didn't have problems. I always indicate the year of the car production. Both systems work and it is unacceptable to mix parts from one to another one. Which one is better I can't say, probably the new one - it looks more solid. It doesn't matter if the gearbox is 4 speed or 5 speed. In many gearboxes which I re-did the thick flat spring washer was missing. Bloody negligence. This washer more or less locks the nut and moreover its thickness is very important for the assembly of the intermediate shaft. The thickness is only 2.5 mm but if it miss the rubber seals are slightly loose inside and the vibrations rise to the sky. Also to compensate its absence the rubber doughnut oval gets to zig-zag shape which also contribute more vibrations and leads to premature wear of the centering seals and doughnut itself. The centering seal should not be loose or squashed, it's not difficult to torn it when assembled not properly. I don't know if there is another 3-rd new nut system. It's possible but anyway I'm not interested; I support the old Nivas in Southern Africa, not the new ones in Kazakhstan. Regards Ventz Attachments:
|
|
|
Post by marius on Nov 26, 2011 7:44:49 GMT 2
Thanks Ventz for the response. Here is the picture I got from you >> Marius
|
|
|
Post by marius on Nov 26, 2011 7:48:45 GMT 2
How is this any different from all of my various illustrations of the two different systems above? Here is a condensed pic illustrating both the nuts >> Marius
|
|
|
Post by marius on Nov 27, 2011 9:51:12 GMT 2
|
|
vincentc
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 1,130
Registered: Mar 16, 2011 17:59:16 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by vincentc on Nov 27, 2011 11:32:43 GMT 2
And here I just found the nuts The overall length of one nut to the other varies by the thickness of the large spring washer. Regards Vincent
|
|