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Post by marius on Feb 6, 2010 10:54:50 GMT 2
A BIG THANK YOU FOR THE CONTRIBUTIONS!! As we all know by now – one of the major reasons for the 5th gear to jump out is that the big nut at the ends of the shaft tends to come loose over time – which if not re-tightened immediately – will wear the 5th gear components to destruction. The solution to this problem is very simple – you obviously need to replace the broken 5th gear and other worn parts – BUT you need one vital part (probably not included on South African Nivas). You need to get the lock washer (part number 2101-1701243). Fit it properly into the splines on the shaft or the coupling flange if you don’t have splines on the shaft. Tighten the nut and tap the washer back onto the nut in order to lock the nut. NO OTHER WASHER WILL DO. If you can’t get the part – DIY it – as long as the washer can grip onto the splines without being able to turn and being able to fold back onto the nut you should be fine. Another interesting part that was missing on my Niva was part number 1702084-10 – this appears to be a spacer on the 5th/reverse selector rod. I fitted a makeshift – I believe it could possibly help to reduce wear on the selector fork – but this is just a guess. Hopefully this will keep some money in your pocket for the weekend drive. Anybody still got a set of good Russian 175 tires lying in the garage?
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Post by Ari Bezuidenhout on Feb 6, 2010 13:02:15 GMT 2
Hi Marius
Thanks for the advice on the gear box , I'm sure it'll in handy.
I have a set of 5 russian 175/80 wheels here in Pretoria that are for sale.
Regards Ari
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Post by danie on Feb 6, 2010 13:17:53 GMT 2
Hi Marius
Many thanks for this excellent advice - I haven't seen any comments about the particular lock washer on any international Niva Forum, and I did not know about this washer before. I wonder if the two local Lada "experts" in South Africa know about this particular lock washer.............
I will make a note about these two part numbers under the topic "Build up your own Sparepart Stock " To my mind these two components could definately prevent major expenses on possible gearbox failures.
If I may ask - where did you buy these two parts ?
Regards
Danie
PS. Contributions like this will ensure that this website will be alive and well for many years ahead !
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Post by marius on Feb 6, 2010 18:35:49 GMT 2
Hi Ari Glad if I can help. If those wheels are still in good condition I would be interested – if the asking price is right?
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Post by marius on Feb 6, 2010 18:44:54 GMT 2
Hi Danie It's a great pleasure. New Nivas imported to SA through CMH came with a fairly large washer that was supposed to be replaced after a 3000km run-in period – unfortunately this did not happen on our Niva. I cannot speak for other Nivas but my guess is very few if any were fitted with the lock washer I mentioned. As far as I know none of the dealers in SA stock this particular lock washer. Why? I think it's probably a maths thing However one of the dealers sold a “lock washer” to me that lasted for about 800km before the nut came undone which in turn damaged the 5th gear – again! I did mention the spacer on the 5th/reverse selector rod to the particular dealer – who then informed me he has no knowledge of such a spacer and that I have the wrong manual. The dealer then also mentioned something to me about just looking for a way to make money out of the Niva by patenting the idea!! Unfortunately the part number already exists Anyway, I was lucky to find an exact fit – a 10mm long piece of copper tubing that fitted nicely over the rod – but I am sure you can order the part from the dealers in the UK/EU or Russia. I did get the lock washer from the EU and you will definitely get it in the UK and Russia. However reading the thread on certain oils corroding copper parts – I hope it’s still there ;D I believe that Brazil/Turkey and a lot of West African countries can be a good source of spare parts for our Nivas – maybe someone should investigate? However we should not disregard our own dealers in SA and they should be supported – it is in everybody’s interest. Having said that – COMPETITION IS A VERY GOOD THING!! Perhaps this sounds a bit lame – but let’s work together to keep these FANTASTIC! cars on our roads.
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Post by danie on Feb 7, 2010 7:58:44 GMT 2
Hi Marius
I fully agree - the local agents do play a very important role in keeping our Lada community mobile, and should be supported as far as possible.
I must say though, I am very concerned about the "maths thing", as well as the quality of "advice" - and comments, by one of the agents.
Anyway, I do not have any intention of misusing this Forum to address my own concerns - so let's keep it "clean".
Regards
Danie
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Post by lada & korean parts on Feb 27, 2010 3:18:26 GMT 2
and we always recommend a bit of locktite when retightening that rear nut.
and DO NOT use 5th gear under 90km/h,as this will cause premature wear of 5th gear,& always remember to overfill the gearbox by 1/2 litre
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Post by marius on Feb 27, 2010 8:11:36 GMT 2
LOCKTITE WILL NOT LAST - better to fit the real thing. Funny that dealers keep insisting on everything else but the real part - wonder why? I also don't buy this thing about 90km/h before you switch to 5th gear. The manual states 80km/h. Someone even suggested 120km/h or 4500 RPM!! Most Nivas can not even reach those speeds - never mind the refs. I've tested the gearbox on very low refs and there is plenty of oil on the 5th gear. The overfill is not a bad idea but you can ruin the oilseal if you fill more than 2 liters. Also try and stick with Russian bearings - probably better than cheaper Chinese made bearings (SKF included)
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Post by lada & korean parts on Mar 2, 2010 2:19:45 GMT 2
no no no,we ALWAYS sell the new lock washer,that's why i said "and" we always recommend a bit of locktite when retightening that rear nut.
yes,book says 80km/h,but peeps tend to let it drop under that,which just lugs 5th gear,and easiest way to describe,rounds the teeth off,and then jumps out of gear. since we have told customers 90km/h,5th gear failures have dropped right down.
oil level: for our hot climates,we need the extra oil,to help keep extra oil around the bearings/gears,this helps synchros as well.
overfill by 1/2 litre WILL NOT cause seal failures,but don't overfill by more than that.
we have no problem reaching those speeds ;o)
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Post by marius on Mar 2, 2010 17:25:46 GMT 2
How about a handful of those new lockwashers as a goodwill gesture You can keep the loctite though ;D
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Post by danie on Jul 17, 2010 10:26:31 GMT 2
Hi Marius Just another question regarding the Lock washer - I found this pic on the UK website (looks different from my gearboxes, so I assume it's a 4 speed box): I assume the washer you are talking about is located between the nut and the flange - like the washer on the pic above ? The washer on the pic is probably an ordinary washer - I assume the particular Lockwasher (Part No 1702084-10) is specially made for 5 speed Boxes ? Regards Danie P.S. I have not seen any comments about a Lockwasher from the "Big Guys" on the other International Forums yet............I just wonder whether they know about this washer?
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Post by marius on Jul 17, 2010 12:01:59 GMT 2
Hi Danie
Yes Danie that is where the washer should be fitted. On the earlier versions of the Niva they also made use of a spring and a circlip to try and keep the nut in position but that did not do the job. This was later replaced by the lock washer.
All these parts are still in the manual but the lock washer is the only thing you need to keep the nut in place.
I will post a rough DIY drawing of what the washer should look like - very easy to make.
My guess is that the dealers just forgot to replace the old thick run-in washer with the thin lock washer after the first 3000kms ;D
Regards Marius
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Post by marius on Jul 17, 2010 13:57:24 GMT 2
Hi all You can obviously order the lock washer from Russia etc - don't think you will get it from one of our local dealers though You can also easily DIY one yourself. The main thing is that the teeth on the washer should bite into the splines on the shaft. That would prevent it from turning on the shaft. All that's left then is to tighten the nut and bend the washer back over the nut Here is a drawing of what it should look like that should save you buckets of money and time Regards Marius
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Post by marius on Jul 18, 2010 10:07:48 GMT 2
When you're done it should look like this...
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Post by danie on Jul 18, 2010 10:41:52 GMT 2
Hi Marius
I guess the washer is a tight fit in the shaft and it gets screwed on the shaft like a nut ?
Regards
Danie
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Post by danie on Jul 18, 2010 10:52:37 GMT 2
Marius, where on earth did you get that last pic from . . Did you modify the washer (on the pic) yourself
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Post by marius on Jul 18, 2010 12:02:04 GMT 2
Hi Danie >>I guess the washer is a tight fit in the shaft and it gets screwed on the shaft like a nut ?<< No - the teeth of the washer just slides into the splines on the tapered shaft which prevents the washer from turning. With the old shaft - in the illustration - the splines are near the end and are quite wide. The newer shaft that I got has narrow splines all the way through on the shaft. I just photoshoped the pic a bit Regards Marius
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Post by danie on Jul 18, 2010 19:04:02 GMT 2
Hi Marius
Thanks for the drawing and modified pic.
I just wonder if the local "Bolt and Nut" shops would not have suitable washers in stock. I think I've got a spare output shaft lying around somewhere..........will try and find a suitable washer as soon as possible, and will then report back.
Regards
Danie
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Post by Ari Bezuidenhout on Jul 18, 2010 22:04:58 GMT 2
Cool Danie
That will be nice if we can get an off the shelf item, for that washer, I'll have a look tomorrow and see what mine looks like and if the one side is bent over.
Ari
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Post by marius on Jul 18, 2010 22:19:24 GMT 2
Hi Ari
Chances are 99.999% you don't have that particular lock washer in place. Also note that trying to bend the existing washer back onto the nut will not help anything - it has to bite into the splines of the shaft.
Hopefully Danie can get something that would do the job.
Regards Marius
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Post by Ari Bezuidenhout on Jul 19, 2010 9:43:07 GMT 2
Hi Marius
Yes I know that but what I meant was to look and see if it is bent over as this would imply that it is the lock washer because as you say there is no point in bending a normal one over.
Ari
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Post by marius on Jul 19, 2010 10:42:15 GMT 2
Hi Ari
I know that you know - but on a forum I will always reply for the benefit of everyone - not just the individual. Perhaps there is someone that doesn't know - no matter how stupid it sounds.
PS - now you know ;D
Regards Marius
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Post by ronnie on Jul 19, 2010 18:14:24 GMT 2
Hi Marius
Checked today and can confirm the g/box rebuilt by you know whom does not have the lock washer. I know it is tight as I checked it when I checked the intermediate shaft.
Regards
Ronnie
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Post by marius on Jul 19, 2010 20:08:53 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie You know who once gave me a "lock washer" that is supposed to bite into the flange and the nut - sadly it did not last very long The other method is to use Loctite which eventually will fail. Chances are you have the same washer - fortunately with your skills you can easily make yourself a proper lock washer. My advice is that you fit it a.s.a.p and save yourself a lot of pain. Regards Marius
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Post by ronnie on Jul 20, 2010 9:24:16 GMT 2
Hi Marius
I have plenty of "oversize" washers which I can file to suit. The next time I have the urge to lie underneath I will attend to it
Regards
Ronnie
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Post by ronnie on Jul 20, 2010 11:42:44 GMT 2
Hi Marius If Danie does not come right this is known as a M10 fender washer and should be available at a good nut and bolt supplier. it is 45mm o/d I think this will be big enough, just a matter of filing it to suit. Regards Ronnie
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Post by danie on Jul 20, 2010 18:52:43 GMT 2
Hi Marius / Ronnie
I haven't had time to investigate the washer issue yet - but if a suitable washer is not available from the Bolt & Nut shops, another possibility is to approach a professional Laser Cut Company to manufacture a couple of these washers locally.
At work I am in regular contact with a local Laser cut company who does a lot of cutting for us - if there is a big demand for these washers locally, I could perhaps contact these guys to get a price..........
Regards
Danie
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Hercules
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Lada - your peace of mind to take on the world's vast landscapes.
Posts: 785
Location: Gauteng
Town: Benoni
Registered: Oct 2, 2009 11:55:41 GMT 2
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Post by Hercules on Jul 20, 2010 18:53:51 GMT 2
Hi All.
My Gearbox also did not have one and was rebuilt 5 years ago by the agent. When I replaced the clutch I replaced the output seal also and noticed that no washer was fitted. Although the nut was very tight, I replaced it with a flat washer and cleeve nut. Up to now not a problem.
Regards.
Hercules
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Post by marius on Jul 20, 2010 20:22:24 GMT 2
Hi Hercules I have no idea what a cleeve nut is. A nylon lock nut would also do the job - but I couldn't find anything that would fit on the shaft. Perhaps the Nuts & Bolts shop Danie? I'm surprised he did not fit a washer at all On the other hand perhaps not Regards Marius
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Hercules
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Lada - your peace of mind to take on the world's vast landscapes.
Posts: 785
Location: Gauteng
Town: Benoni
Registered: Oct 2, 2009 11:55:41 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
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Post by Hercules on Jul 20, 2010 20:39:53 GMT 2
Hi Marius.
A cleeve nut us a type of nut been used on exhaust manifolts or very hot applications with a lot of vibrations and will not come loose with any vibration or heat.
I came in contact with this type of nut the first time when I work in the military enviroment and was used on the Olifant Tank engine.
I also fit some on my Ford V6 tappets and it was the last time that a blind person could tell it was a Ford V6.
You get them in different sizes at the bigger nut and bolt places. A bit expensive but worth it.
Regards.
Hercules
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