Nikki Lada
Senior Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 353
Registered: Jun 6, 2011 8:12:13 GMT 2
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Post by Nikki Lada on Nov 4, 2011 23:21:07 GMT 2
Thank you Guys - your assistance is always appreciated. Charles – I’ll do as you suggest - the selector forks and needle bearing have already been added to my list. Changing the gearbox oil is something I’ve been meaning to do for ages but I need to find some first!! ;D I’ve started phoning around but won’t be able to do anything before next week because Nikita is with the Auto Electrician and won’t be back ‘til Monday. Danie – I’ve also added the part that Marius thinks could be what you are referring to. If you think it’s a ‘must have’ part I’ll take your word for it! ;D Marius – when the nut is loose does 5th gear jump out every time it is engaged or is it something that only happens occasionally? As I said earlier I seldom use it but I will take Nikita for a long spin next week and make sure it still works!!!! ;D I know that finding reverse can often be difficult, and I will do as you suggest, but I've never had this kind of problem in the past. NIKKI
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Post by danie on Nov 5, 2011 6:48:18 GMT 2
The thrust washer is perhaps the "sealing ring - 2101-1701042". Apparently when that breaks you won't be able to shift into 4th gear. Marius Hi Marius The Thrust Washer I was referring to can be seen at this pic (held by hand) : (The Thrust Washer at the pic is a spare one in my possession which is also slightly worn.) My Lada's 4th gear kept on jumping out, and the "professionals" who has "repaired" the gearbox some time ago told me that the selector fork was worn, and caused the 4th gear problem. They have just re - installed the broken Thrust ring, and I have never used the Gearbox to see if it still jumps out of 4th gear. I think you are correct - the Spigot Shaft could easily move backwards and forwards when the Thrust Ring is broken. From which spare part catalog did you find the part number ? Danie
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Post by marius on Nov 5, 2011 8:05:41 GMT 2
Danie it is number 10 on page 222 of the 2003 catalog.
Marius
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Post by marius on Nov 5, 2011 8:18:59 GMT 2
Marius – when the nut is loose does 5th gear jump out every time it is engaged or is it something that only happens occasionally? As I said earlier I seldom use it but I will take Nikita for a long spin next week and make sure it still works!!!! ;D NIKKI At first it happens only occasionally. As soon as it starts to happen you should try and re-tighten the nut to see if helps, but from my experience it is probably too late already. You will at least need the following replacement parts if it keeps on jumping out of gear: the complete 5th speed gear (2107-1701157) the syncro sleeve (2107-1701176) the syncro hub (2107-1701174-10) the 5th gear selector fork and lastly but definitely not the least, the proper lock washer Marius
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Post by Charles on Nov 5, 2011 12:59:53 GMT 2
Keep in mind worn gears will also cause it to jump out of gears.
Charles
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Nikki Lada
Senior Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 353
Registered: Jun 6, 2011 8:12:13 GMT 2
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Post by Nikki Lada on Nov 5, 2011 17:36:02 GMT 2
Marius – how difficult and time consuming is it to check this nut /fit the lock washer, spacer, etc. and what does the process involve?
Will it also be necessary to replace the actual nut as well? I seem to recall reading elsewhere on the forum that the newer nuts are slightly different?
Thanks a stack
NIKKI
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Post by ronnie on Nov 5, 2011 17:50:20 GMT 2
Hi Nikki
As this washer is Marius`s pet I will let him reply to you ;D
Ronnie
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Post by Ari Bezuidenhout on Nov 5, 2011 17:51:28 GMT 2
Hi Nikki
The main job is to remove the transfer box and the the intermediate shaft(doughnut and all). Now you will be able to see and access the nut to check for the washer etc. To remove the nut a size 30 spanner or socket is required.
Ari
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Nikki Lada
Senior Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 353
Registered: Jun 6, 2011 8:12:13 GMT 2
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Post by Nikki Lada on Nov 6, 2011 22:14:14 GMT 2
Thanks Ari – looking at the drawings I thought as much but I’ll understand it better when I get Nikita back tomorrow.
I just needed an idea of what’s involved to get an idea of labour costs.
NIKKI
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Post by danie on Nov 21, 2011 5:31:48 GMT 2
Will it also be necessary to replace the actual nut as well? I seem to recall reading elsewhere on the forum that the newer nuts are slightly different? Thanks a stack NIKKI Hi Nikki I have recently ordered a new nut for my spare gearbox from Pavel. There is no difference between the new nut and the nut on my original gearbox - so I assume the nut has not changed . Danie
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Post by marius on Nov 21, 2011 6:38:58 GMT 2
Hi Nikki Same old nut. Marius
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spikes
Moderator
Posts: 3,689
Location: Mpumalanga
Town: Nelspruit
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Post by spikes on Nov 21, 2011 7:33:24 GMT 2
Hi Nikki Replace the nut as a matter of course. Then with the "marius" washer locked you can rest assured that the 5th gear will not hassle you again. Cost will be negligible.
Spikes
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Post by ronnie on Nov 21, 2011 8:25:54 GMT 2
Hi Marius Nikki and Danie
You need to be care full as there is 2 different nuts available so you must be care full which one you use. It depends which centering bushes you use as to which nut is correct.
Ronnie
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Post by marius on Nov 21, 2011 9:03:14 GMT 2
I have never seen any other nut on the Niva than the one I have. Probably older Nivas (1600's?) might have a different nut but the Nivas imported into SA by CMH's only has one type of nut - as far as I know If that is not the case I would like to see proof ;D Marius
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Post by ronnie on Nov 21, 2011 9:28:28 GMT 2
Hi Marius
There are 2 different nuts and the profile on the end is different. I have seen them at Ventz`s place. I am sure he will tell you the difference and using the correct one is important from the vibration point of view. Even the parts cat shows them, so they exist. If I remember correctly, it depends wither you are using the spring washer or the locking washer as to which nut you use. No doubt we will find many cases where the nut being used is wrong.
Ronnie
Ronnie
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vincentc
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 1,130
Registered: Mar 16, 2011 17:59:16 GMT 2
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Post by vincentc on Nov 21, 2011 9:45:44 GMT 2
Hello All
The difference between the two nuts affect the interference fit where they go into the intermediate shaft. Too much play there could also be the source of vibration.
I have examples of both nuts and will post them shortly.
Regards Vincent
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Post by ronnie on Nov 21, 2011 10:24:53 GMT 2
Hi Marius
If I remember correctly and the nut differs depending on you using a lock washer or a spring washer, in theory anyone changing from a spring washer to a lock washer and not changing the nut would then have the wrong nut fitted and could have another thing contributing to vibration.
Ronnie
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Post by marius on Nov 21, 2011 17:56:57 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie
That is not the correct info as far as I am concerned - with regard to the use of the spring washer or the lock washer.
Marius
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Post by ronnie on Nov 21, 2011 18:03:44 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie That is not the correct info as far as I am concerned - with regard to the use of the spring washer or the lock washer. Marius Hi Marius The information I have given you is correct. I do not make things up, I am always sure of my facts. You can always argue with Ventz if you want. ;D Ronnie
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Post by marius on Nov 21, 2011 18:13:56 GMT 2
Looks like you guys were ready and waiting for me ;D ;D Maybe you guys are correct but when I replaced my 5th gear the last time I got some real expert advice from the horses mouth so to speak. The Russian informed me that I should replace the complete output shaft with everything on it and replace it with the brand new modified parts. As you know the Nivas in SA came standard with the spring washer. The lock washer was included by the Russians - with exactly the same nut as before. They would have most certainly given me something else if there was a modified nut - like everything else they replaced. Maybe you know more than the Russians do Marius
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Post by marius on Nov 21, 2011 19:59:42 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie
I don't know where you got your facts from but perhaps you should refer to the 2003 manual p227. You will see that since 1997 all new Nivas came with a different nut (same part number). For all practical purposes all of the Nivas legally imported into SA should have the same nut fitted - and I believe they are.
I have a small section of the 2007 manual kindly provided to me by the Russians, that refers to the gearbox parts (as posted some time ago in this same thread) where only one nut is mentioned. This is exactly the same nut that I got from the Russians - which in turn is exactly the same as my previous nut (of which I have 2 samples).
Hopefully this will resolve the matter with regard to the nut.
Marius
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Post by marius on Nov 22, 2011 11:00:45 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie
Whilst I am still waiting for your response.
The difference in the nuts has nothing to do with what comes before the nut - like the spring washer or the lock washer. Where it does matter is what fits behind the nut on the output shaft.
Marius
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Post by ronnie on Nov 22, 2011 11:54:08 GMT 2
Hi Marius
Sorry I missed that post. It is important to use the correct nut as they are of different depths. The lock washer has a deep nut and the spring washer has a shorter nut. Remember the spring washer is quite thick. The depth of the nut affects the locating of the rubber washer, (not the centering one) .When you order from Ventz he will ask you which nut you require. You must realize there were plenty Niva`s imported before 1997 Ari`s was one of the first and it is 1996. I will also admit no matter where you look it is difficult to get a clear picture of the parts. If you really want to get complicated the parts cataloger I have tells you the locking washer was superseded by the spring washer and locktite. Hopefully Ventz will clear this up and Vincent will post a pic of the 2 nuts available.
Ronnie
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Post by ronnie on Nov 22, 2011 12:01:06 GMT 2
i Marius
I remember Danie commenting on the centering ring being a tight fit on the shaft. What about the other sealing ring which I never hear anyone commenting on do you have this fitted as it is also very important
Ronnie
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Post by marius on Nov 22, 2011 14:58:57 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie
I posted the relevant facts - as per the parts manuals. There is no mystery here unless you did not read my post properly. It is clear from the 2003 manual that the older nut was replaced by a new one from 1997 onwards.
My Niva - as all the others that was imported by CMH - was fitted with the spring washer. In fact all Nivas since 1995 was fitted with the spring washer. However problems soon started with the 5th gear when the nut came undone and in the 2003 manual you can clearly see that the spring washer was replaced with the lock washer. The same lock washer is also illustrated in the 2007 manual.
You are off coarse free to disagree with me but at least I have illustrated my point with some facts. Frankly I have not seen any of the facts you mentioned earlier - apart from the fact that there are two different nuts - one dated pre 97 and the other one post 97.
All the info I got with regard to the lock washer and the 5th gear was kindly provided to me by the best possible source - the Russians.
Marius PS - I have the rubber sealing ring fitted.
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Post by ronnie on Nov 22, 2011 16:52:09 GMT 2
Hi Marius
I of course disagree with you. The 1999 manual deletes the locking washer (not that I agree with this) and I quote <since 1997 on the rear end of the gearbox output shaft the design of the following parts were changed. Instead of a metal centering ring 26 (see fig 3-31) and cir clip 1 a rubber centering bush is installed. Instead of sealing 25 with spring 24 a sealing without a spring is installed. LOCK WASHER 22 IS REPLACED WITH A SPRING WASHER AND IS SEALED WITH (LOCTITE). So now what is the correct washer to use? It is also very dangerous to assume all Niva`s were fitted with a certain part unless you know from which chassis no a change took place. We will wait until Ventz clarifies the position with regards to the nuts.
Ronnie
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Post by marius on Nov 22, 2011 17:14:30 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie
I am not sure what exactly you quoted - can you redo that bit please? I presume you are referring to the 99 repair manual? The spare parts manual (2003 and 2007) gives a better and more recent indication of the ongoing changes.
The lock washer was indeed replaced by the spring washer - but back in 1995. This was short lived due to the 5th gear failures and the spring washer was back in action at the very latest by 2003 and most definitely still being sold as a spare part as of today. Try and order the spring washer from Russia and see what reply you're going to get! ;D
Things have changed since 1999 and it still does. The current parts are the lock washer, the nut, the rubber sealing ring and finally the rubber centering bush.
Marius
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Post by ronnie on Nov 22, 2011 17:35:38 GMT 2
Hi Marius
This whole discussion has moved from my original post where I stated that there is 2 different nuts. I posted this so the members of the forum are aware that the 2 nuts are not interchangeable. This is important information that should not be overlooked. I trust Ventz will comment and explain how to know which nut is correct for the present setup any member has.
Ronnie
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Post by marius on Nov 22, 2011 18:13:41 GMT 2
I have never seen any other nut on the Niva than the one I have. Probably older Nivas (1600's?) might have a different nut but the Nivas imported into SA by CMH's only has one type of nut - as far as I know If that is not the case I would like to see proof ;D Marius This is my original response - not denying the second nut, but merely stating that I have not seen any other nut than the one I got and that older Nivas might have a different nut (i.e. pre-97). I still would like to see evidence indicating something other than my original post ;D Marius
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Post by marius on Nov 22, 2011 18:43:43 GMT 2
Marius – how difficult and time consuming is it to check this nut /fit the lock washer, spacer, etc. and what does the process involve? Will it also be necessary to replace the actual nut as well? I seem to recall reading elsewhere on the forum that the newer nuts are slightly different? Thanks a stack NIKKI Well Nikki I got so distracted I completely forgot to answer your original question! To fit the nut (or even just to check the nut) involves the removal of the TC and the intermediate shaft. Easy job but takes some time. Lets say about 2 hours at the most. You don't need another type of nut for the lock washer. Remove the nut and the spring washer. Replace the spring washer with the lock washer. Throw the spring washer away! ;D Make sure that the lock washer bites into the splines/keys of the shaft. The lock washer must not be able to turn on the shaft. Re-tighten the nut until tight. Do not over-tighten as you might not be able to get into 5th gear if you do. Bend the lock washer backwards over the nut. The job is halfway done! Put everything back and you are good to go for many years! Marius
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