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Post by danie on Nov 23, 2011 5:28:31 GMT 2
Hi Nikki Pavel sells the following components as a "kit"- and it comes in a sealed plastic bag when you ordered the "kit" from him: 1. Nut 0 2121 - 1701244 2. Spring 0 2121 - 1701248 3. "Seal"" 2101 - 1701245 4. Centering Ring 21213 - 1701247 If you buy this "kit'" (just more than $7.00 - but I will verify the price) you cant go wrong. All those components - except the Spring, can be seen at this pic : (The Intermediate Shaft (top, left of the pic) is obviously not part of the kit) The nut (bottom ,right) comes from my original gearbox - and the dimensions is exactly the same as the nut which came from Pavel. The Spring can not be seen at the pic, but is located between the hexed part of the Nut, (see nut at the top, right) and the Nut with rubber Centering Ring , which can also be seen. The so called "Seal" - which can be seen between the Intermediate Shaft and the Nut with Centering Ring (top, right at the pic above) gets installed here : Danie P.S. Whatever you do, don't order anything via ordinary Airmail - my latest parcel still has not arrived yet .
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Post by Charles on Nov 23, 2011 6:47:30 GMT 2
Danie its a pity you have problems with ordanary mail. I have ordered all my spares like that and have only had problems with one parcel that got held up at customs.
Charles
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Post by marius on Nov 23, 2011 7:07:22 GMT 2
Trevor senior posted a pic of the "old" nut where the spring is still fitted behind the nut. The lock washer is fitted in front. With the new setup there is no need for the spring and it doesn't feature in the 2007 manual anymore.
EDIT>> I think without the metal centering ring and the circlip holding the spring in place, you will have some difficulty fitting everything back together.
Marius
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Post by ronnie on Nov 23, 2011 8:24:35 GMT 2
Hi Nikki
One thing with Marius`s instructions that I differ with the nut should be tightened to 66.6 and 82.3 NM. If you tighten the nut and you can`t select 5th gear something must be wrong.
Ronnie
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Post by marius on Nov 23, 2011 10:07:08 GMT 2
You forgot about the Loctite Ronnie! ;D ;D ;D Fact is if you over-tighten the nut you won't be able to select 5th gear (because things are too tight - nothing else) Marius PS - power failure over here so no time for further arguments for now
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Post by Charles on Nov 23, 2011 10:16:30 GMT 2
The nut on mine is FT and I have no problems with gear selection.
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Post by marius on Nov 23, 2011 12:06:17 GMT 2
Power is back on Looks like I have a hard time convincing anyone - but this is the info I got from the Russians and the guys who supplied my parts in the EU. I have no reason to doubt the info I got from them. They made considerable effort to guide me through the process and this was one of the things they stressed. The only thing I am trying to do here is to help my fellow members if I am in the position to do so. Obviously you guys are free to choose what route to take, but this is at your own peril. Use it or loose it. Marius
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Post by ronnie on Nov 23, 2011 12:31:05 GMT 2
Hi Charles
What is FT ?. I can think of finger tight and F@#$ing tight ;D. That nut should be torqued to the correct setting.
Ronnie
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Post by Charles on Nov 23, 2011 12:42:54 GMT 2
Ronnie the 2nd option. The bush inside the box will prevent it from locking the gears. I will drive it like this untill it breaks.
Charles
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Post by ronnie on Nov 23, 2011 13:31:10 GMT 2
Hi Charles
I was always told to torque to the correct setting, and if something jammed there was a problem somewhere which needed to be investigated.
Ronnie
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Post by ronnie on Nov 23, 2011 13:44:08 GMT 2
Hi Danie
There would seem to be many things which are contentious as the spring was omitted years ago. This was why the different lengths of nuts are also important so the sealing washer was properly located. Unfortunately I did not pay enough attention to Ventz when he explained the differences and which nut should be used. There must be as many Nivas prior to 97 as there was after that. We must also remember the shipment which lay somewhere in the Russian states for over a year, and I am not sure when these vehicles were produced and to what spec. Without chassis numbers no one can make a statement as to what the spec was when the vehicle was produced.
Ronnie
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Post by Charles on Nov 23, 2011 15:47:34 GMT 2
We'll Ronnie my box is perfect. No noise, vibes or juping out of gear so I will just leave it like that. I can not see anything that can go wrong from how tight it is now. It is at about 120N.m.
Charles
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Post by marius on Nov 23, 2011 16:19:13 GMT 2
Charles yours sounds fine to me but I would consider that a bit too tight! ;D
Marius
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Post by marius on Nov 23, 2011 16:23:21 GMT 2
Hi all
I think as far as the nut is concerned the following info should be important - in order not to cause any confusion. There is a nut that pre-dated 1997 and one that post dated 1997. The difference between the nut would influence the parts that come behind the nut on the shaft. Pre-97 should have a spring, a metal centering ring and the circlip holding the spring in place. Post-97 should have a rubber sealing ring and a rubber centering ring.
Both should have the lock washer fitted in front of the nut. A spring washer replaced the lock washer in 1995 but due to issues with the 5th gear the lock washer was re-introduced.
Hope that makes sense to everyone.
Marius
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Post by ronnie on Nov 23, 2011 17:15:07 GMT 2
Hi Marius
I agree with that, yet Danie has mentioned the spring in his last post.
Ronnie
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Post by ronnie on Nov 23, 2011 17:17:43 GMT 2
Hi Charles
I think my box is also OK but I did torque it within specs. I am sure your nut is as secure as if had been welded on ;D ;D ;D ;D
Ronnie
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Post by marius on Nov 23, 2011 17:48:46 GMT 2
Charles >>I think perhaps the reason why they insisted not to over-tighten is exactly the bush (2107-1701133). This bush is no longer part of the new 5th gear. There are other smaller - but probably very significant differences as well.
Ronnie>> at least you now agree on things you disagreed on two pages ago ;D
Marius
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Post by Charles on Nov 23, 2011 18:36:19 GMT 2
Marius mine has a new bush so no worries there. Will drive it until it breaks. Then rebuild it, but it will not break!
Charles
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Post by ronnie on Nov 23, 2011 18:51:27 GMT 2
Hi Marius
What I disagree with is there are 2 different nuts which I have had in my hand very recently. Unfortunately I did not pay enough attention at the time. Vincent was going to post pictures of both nuts but just how he will be able to find them in his garage is another story ;D ;D
Ronnie
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Post by Charles on Nov 23, 2011 19:31:58 GMT 2
I have seen the other nut. Just did not save the pic. i almost think the box Ari bought from Douw had the other nut fitted.
Charles
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Post by marius on Nov 23, 2011 19:43:12 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie
I have indicated several times that there are two different nuts. The thing that I disagree on is your following statements:
"If I remember correctly, it depends wither you are using the spring washer or the locking washer as to which nut you use." AND "The information I have given you is correct. I do not make things up, I am always sure of my facts."
Marius
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Post by ronnie on Nov 23, 2011 20:00:29 GMT 2
Hi Marius
I stand by what I said. there is a different depth of nut used depending on wither you have the spring washer or the locking washer.
Ronnie
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Post by marius on Nov 23, 2011 20:40:48 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie
The difference in depth has everything to do with what comes behind the nut and nothing to do with what comes in front of the nut. In other words neither the spring washer nor the lock washer has anything to do with what nut should be fitted. Both Danie and I would have been provided with a different nut if that was the case.
Marius
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Post by danie on Nov 24, 2011 5:52:47 GMT 2
Hi Marius I agree with that, yet Danie has mentioned the spring in his last post. Ronnie The Spring, as well as the "Seal", and Centering Ring is listed at the 2003 Part Catalog - which can be downloaded from the Ladaworld website : www.ladaworld.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_22&products_id=42While each mentioned component has been listed at the 2003 Catalog - and while Pavel still sells the specific components listed at the Catalog as a "kit", I believe that the Spring is still an important component - therefore it will definitely be installed in my Lada. Should the spring not really be needed, it can't do any harm anyway. Danie
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Post by marius on Nov 24, 2011 6:41:31 GMT 2
Hi Danie
I know the spring is featured in the 2003 manual. When I ordered it back then I was told it is not needed and it is no longer in the 2007 manual. It would be interesting to see if you are actually going to get the spring. Unless they have changed the design of the spring and the rubber centering ring I believe you will have some difficulty installing the spring and even the intermediate shaft.
Marius
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Post by Charles on Nov 24, 2011 7:00:37 GMT 2
Mine had a spring but I tossed it. The "seal" Is also basically stuffed but the centering bush is still there. I have a very small vibe at 105km/h. Its so small that my passengers do not even notice it. Only reason I notice it is because I know about it.
Charles
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Post by ronnie on Nov 24, 2011 8:20:00 GMT 2
Hi Marius
The nut has everything to do with what is in front of the lock washer as the wrong nut being used does not allow the sealing ring to be fully located. The spring washer is considerably thicker than the locking washer, with the result the front of the nut is closer to the output flange. I trust this will allow you to understand the problem.
Ronnie
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Post by ronnie on Nov 24, 2011 8:24:37 GMT 2
Hi Charles
When I met with Ventz he said it was very important to have the sealing ring installed as it also affected the vibrations. When my Niva was delivered it had no sealing ring, and at present does not have the proper ring installed.
Ronnie
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Post by Charles on Nov 24, 2011 9:04:14 GMT 2
Ronnie I agree with what you are saying about the nuts and washers. That is how I understand it aswell.
Charles
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Post by marius on Nov 24, 2011 9:17:44 GMT 2
Hi Marius The nut has everything to do with what is in front of the lock washer as the wrong nut being used does not allow the sealing ring to be fully located. The spring washer is considerably thicker than the locking washer, with the result the front of the nut is closer to the output flange. I trust this will allow you to understand the problem. Ronnie Hi Ronnie Perhaps you can explain why Danie and I got the same nut as before - because according to your theory we should now have a different nut? If you can't explain that - then I refer you back to the 2003 manual on p227 as in a previous post. You will see that since 1997 all new Nivas came with a different nut (same part number) and that this new nut is the same as the one we all currently have, with perhaps a few exceptions, since the Vanchester/CMH imports. There is no other nut that I know of - other than the one pre-dating 1997. Marius
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