markh
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Post by markh on Dec 11, 2011 18:17:55 GMT 2
Well this morning settled it, on the way to Durbs to go fishing before sunrise, the fishing ski on the roof, bait starting to defrost and hopes high for that big one .... and the darn dreaded battery light comes on again, headlights fade, dash lights go dim, radio switches off and car decides it's had enough and starts stuttering unless i drive in complete darkness all the way back home.... Fish 1, me 0.
The whole system had been hacked at before with aftermarket external regulators and relays installed on the standard 1600's crap alternator/generator before I got it, but so far had behaved mostly with the odd red light of doom staying on for a trip and coming right by itself at the next restart, or two....
I want to go full hog and replace it with a problem free Bosch unit. Because of my larger than life headlights and sound system I am thinking a 100 A unit is best. What do I need to look out for, what mods may I be in line for and how much trouble and heartbreak am I heading towards?
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Post by Charles on Dec 11, 2011 20:17:33 GMT 2
Get a 90amp Bosch. You will just have to make new mountings. Have been done many times before.
Charles
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dimitris
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Post by dimitris on Dec 11, 2011 22:03:35 GMT 2
Ιf your Niva is a 1600 like mine, I've fit an alt Bosch 100A and I can give you informations if you need.
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Post by marius on Dec 12, 2011 7:35:51 GMT 2
Hi Dimitris
The Bosch alty looks like a straight forward fit but it would be great if you can give us some tips on how to fit it properly and any DIY alterations that you've made. Pics would be great!
Thanks Marius
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dimitris
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Post by dimitris on Dec 12, 2011 8:26:12 GMT 2
Good morning Marius I placed the alt Bosch 3-4 years ago and it works very well. But you must know that the bracket of the alt and the electrical circuit in Niva 1600 is completely different compared to 1700. I will search to find photos and diagrams, to post later.....
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dimitris
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Post by dimitris on Dec 12, 2011 18:14:35 GMT 2
Part 1The differences between the alternators 1600 \ 1700 The differences between the electrical circuits 1600 \ 1700 The differences between the brackets Alternator Bosch 100 A (from OPEL Diesel Vectra -Astra - Corsa) I placed a pulley for narrow belt. After I cut a piece from the bracket so as to have the same distance (5cm) as in alty Lada I thought and I found a way to adjustment the belt……. (do you expect to explained them better? ...... in English?) The new alty was bigger, so to be able fit it I had to disconnect all hoses. This screw was placed contrary to gain more space for the alty I fitted a longer belt 10x975 The belt adjustment nut
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dimitris
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Post by dimitris on Dec 12, 2011 19:20:35 GMT 2
Part 2The electrical connectionsBefore \ Now Voltage regulator ……OFF No charge relay……....OFF The connections1.I connected a thick cable ( now 100A) from alternator to battery. 2.I connected the black cable (which before connected to relay) direct to the lamp terminal of alternator. 3.I opened the instrument cluster and I cut the white\black cable which connected the charge lamp to earth. That white\black cable now must be connected to + (positive). The nearest point to connect is on the oil pressure gauge (amber cable). That's all
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Post by marius on Dec 12, 2011 19:52:06 GMT 2
Thanks Dimitris Photos always speaks louder than words ;D Very nice looking job! Marius
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Post by ronnie on Dec 12, 2011 19:57:16 GMT 2
Here is a tip first posted by Ari. Instead of running a new wire from the alternator to the battery, connect the alternator to the heavy wire which comes from the battery to the starter. This way you will improve the volt drop as the starter wire is heavy and is only in use when the starter is in action.
Ronnie
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ladanivabelgium
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Post by ladanivabelgium on Dec 13, 2011 7:28:01 GMT 2
Dimitris, that's an answer some one can work with. Thanks!
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spikes
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Post by spikes on Dec 13, 2011 7:53:45 GMT 2
Great work,Dimitris! Thanks for the clear explanation of a mod that many a NIVA owner will consider during ownership of his/her NIVA spikes
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dimitris
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Post by dimitris on Dec 13, 2011 11:24:30 GMT 2
Good day everyone and thank you for your comments. As you know most mods outside of the positives have and negative effects (sometimes very difficult to solve). I made this modification 3-4 years ago and so far I have not problems. But ...... As you know we can turn by our hand the alternator when no electrical charge. If there is a large electrical load may need 3 or 5 hp . But because the same belt turns the alty and the water pump, so I think that the pump has a large load and its life will be short! (I had changed the water pump a few months before the alternator) I have in mind ..... to fit the alternator on the other side of the motor (which someone placed the power steering) to place a double pulley on the motor, so I have another belt on the water pump (through a tensioner) and other for the alty. What is your opinion?
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Post by Ari Bezuidenhout on Dec 13, 2011 11:41:42 GMT 2
That will suck more power, as there will then be more weight to turn and more friction to overcome. Move the alty to the other side and higher but use it on the same belt with the same tension system.
Ari
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dimitris
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Post by dimitris on Dec 13, 2011 11:57:41 GMT 2
Ari, so does not solve the problem that I think there is. The water pump and the alternator will turn by the same belt again.
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Post by Ari Bezuidenhout on Dec 13, 2011 12:02:15 GMT 2
You could save some HP by taking the mechanical fan off and using an electrical one.
Ari
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dimitris
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Post by dimitris on Dec 13, 2011 12:13:02 GMT 2
You could save some HP by taking the mechanical fan off and using an electrical one. Ari I have mechanical fan and an electrical one!!!! ;D Let me add .... I think the problem starts because we use narrow belt. So we are forced to put more tension to not spin the belt over the pulleys.
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Post by Ari Bezuidenhout on Dec 13, 2011 12:41:14 GMT 2
Why dont you try a mod with a wider belt? And see if you can make it work?
Ari
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dimitris
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Post by dimitris on Dec 13, 2011 13:06:37 GMT 2
Why dont you try a mod with a wider belt? And see if you can make it work? Ari This is not easy. I need to build new pulleys, and how this can be done to water pump? I do not want to remove the mechanical fan and I think that there is not enough space for a wider pulley + the fan.
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Post by Charles on Dec 13, 2011 13:06:56 GMT 2
Ari why would you want to move the alty higher up?
Charles
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dimitris
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Post by dimitris on Dec 13, 2011 13:16:11 GMT 2
You could save some HP by taking the mechanical fan off and using an electrical one. Ari Yes, I understand what you do mean ...... Ari why would you want to move the alty higher up?Charles ..... for protection from water.
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Post by ronnie on Dec 13, 2011 16:38:02 GMT 2
Hi Dimitris
What you have suggested is exactly what I have, except I am driving an Air Conditioner.
Ronnie
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Post by Charles on Dec 13, 2011 18:04:23 GMT 2
Water does nothing to a alty.
Charles
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Post by ronnie on Dec 13, 2011 18:10:15 GMT 2
Hi Charles
You are correct, water does no harm, it is the dirt and grit which causes the damage. Clean water is fine.
Ronnie
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Ladaniva
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Post by Ladaniva on Dec 18, 2011 23:06:05 GMT 2
Hi All, I think the basic problem is so much easier to solve than you all think. The basic fact is that your alternator makes enough power to charge your battery full. 60 amp or 100 amp is enough to charge any 12 volt battery full. Ask Ronnie, the electrician, for years. In theory, in any case. The reasons why an alternator can not charge a battery full (assuming your battery is in a good condition): Time to charge (for the relative consumption of electrical current) Voltage drop Alternator electronics set not to charge a battery full Alternator faulty Earthing problem State of the battery A battery can only be charged full if the volts are high enough to do it and the battery in a state to take it. Huh. You thought it was a given!! I am really sorry to break the bad news but very few Ladas, including most probably Dimitris Niva, can not do it (complete with his 100 AMP alternator)! A battery needs "Courtesy of Cadex During the constant-current charge, the battery charges to 70 percent in 5–8 hours; the remaining 30 percent is filled with the slower topping charge that lasts another 7–10 hours. The topping charge is essential for the well-being of the battery and can be compared to a little rest after a good meal. If deprived, the battery will eventually lose the ability to accept a full charge and the performance will decrease due to sulfation. The float charge in the third stage maintains the battery at full charge". Also: "The correct setting of the charge voltage is critical and ranges from 2.30 to 2.45V per cell. Setting the voltage threshold is a compromise, and battery experts refer to this as “dancing on the head of a needle.” On one hand, the battery wants to be fully charged to get maximum capacity and avoid sulfation on the negative plate; on the other hand, an over-saturated condition causes grid corrosion on the positive plate and induces gassing." So, the battery must be charged at the correct voltage for long enough in the correct manner or you will call the Niva alternator for ever nasty things! Alternators are set to produce voltages at certain levels. And just now you discovered the problem: the car battery and car alternator do not talk the same language!!!! The answer is: prevent voltage drop and set the alternator to produce what the battery needs and you will get the best compromise between cost and reliability. It can only be done with an external regulator (in the case of normal alternator charging systems) that measures at the battery.I hope the above explains why so many people experience problems with their batteries that do not last (fail early/do not perform as expected, and almost all blame it unfairly on the alternator. Regards, Fanus
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Post by ronnie on Dec 19, 2011 7:47:45 GMT 2
Hi Fanus
I agree with what you say, and all I can add is for any one charging a battery with a battery charger to make sure they buy a charge limiting one. They are (much) more expensive but limit the charging voltage to 13.8 volts. I only used the Landy every couple of months to go into the bush and the auto charger, which was pluged in all the time, extended the battery life to almost 9 years. With a normal charger, by the time you get arround to switching it off the battery voltage will be over 14 volts.
Ronnie
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Ladaniva
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Post by Ladaniva on Dec 19, 2011 22:28:19 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie,
One of the longest threads I ever read on the internet was about charging batteries or making batteries last (4 x 4 application). You will not believe how many opinions (even very educated ones) there are about extending the life of a battery (start batteries and deep cycle). it was actually alarming to see how quickly batteries are destroyed by 4 x 4 enthusiast!
One of the most interesting things I learned from reading up on batteries and charging systems was that sealed batteries do not last long! (or nearly as long as one would expect, since it is relatively new technology). Also that heat is the biggest enemy of batteries in vehicles. But let me stop; there is too much to be said on this topic.
If you have spare time visit this website :www.batteryvitamin.net/. I learned a lot of the dark science of the automotive battery there!! If your battery lasted nine years you obviously know a lot more than most about batteries (and of course invested in quality batteries).
Regards,
Fanus
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Ladaniva
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Post by Ladaniva on Dec 19, 2011 22:57:09 GMT 2
Hi All, Since it is Christmas time I will save you a lot of money and point you to a South African website that will save you a fortune (and misfortune when going on a long 4 x 4 trip). How will you save? It is unfortunately one of those presents where you must first spend a few bucks to save (yes, you are right, nothing is for free in this world). Go to: www.4x4powersolutions.co.zaand ask for Gawie (highly qualified, by the way), gawie@planmypower.co.za, for technical advice and why the "MXS Booster alternator regulator" will put money in your pocket for years to come! He is very approachable, helpful and fluent in English and Afrikaans. I am in no way whatsoever in business with this company or related to anyone there. I just want to make your Niva experience a much safer and less costly one. Regards, Fanus
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Ladaniva
Full Niva Petrol Head
A Lada Niva for a new lease of life
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Post by Ladaniva on Dec 20, 2011 0:03:05 GMT 2
Hi Dimitris, I am interested to know why you prefer to keep the mechanical fan, if you already upgraded your alternator? (The amperage two electric fans will draw should not be a challenge for your electrical system). Electric fans are very reliable and efficient (especially if fitted inside the engine bay-side of the radiator). If the mechanical fan is out of the way you should be able to run two v-belts to the alternator (these alternator pulleys are common and can not be too expensive - mass produced). I think I saw a standard Niva pulley on the crankshaft with place for two v-belts on this or other Niva forum? Regards, Fanus Attachments:
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Post by ronnie on Dec 20, 2011 7:27:56 GMT 2
Hi Fanus
You are very correct, it is a very complex subject and there are plenty of different ideas out there. I have read through the link you gave and it all looks very expensive and not a route I would go. The battery life I mentioned was for batteries fitted inside the vehicle (defender) well away from any heat. Two +- 70 amp deltec deep cycle with a National Luna dual battery system. In addition I had a second set of 4 batteries +-40amp each and a second alternator. The biggest load was a National Luna double door fridge and freezer. If I were to do this installation again, I would not even bother using a dual battery system as I never had a power issue at any time. Rather use 2 big batteries and 2 alternators and you have a simple system. I also had a 60 watt solar panel for use when sitting in the bush for extended periods. The big problem with the solar panels is cost which is prohibitive. By the way the 4 batteries are now 9 years old and will be replaced with a single battery when replacement falls due. The 4 are also Deltec and were used instead of a single one as I got them for nothing.
Ronnie
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Post by keithbatkins on Dec 20, 2011 9:32:56 GMT 2
Nice thread Guys....thanks. I have retained the original mechanical fan in CERATOTH as it's working just fine. However it doesn't have an 'engine side' cowl fitted.....should I go to the trouble / expense of fitting one ? I got rather confused about the pros and cons of this option when reading the posts in the 'engine overheating' section earlier this year. I also have an electric fan (10 inch) fitted to the 'outside' of the radiator grill as I wasn't clever enough to fit it inside the engine bay. Should I move it; and if so should it be between the radiator grill and the radiator (front) or between the engine and the radiator (rear) ? Suck / blow is not a problem as I just have to reverse the wires. Regards to all at LOCSA and any news of Marius and his Service Provider issues ? Keith and CERATOTH
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