Ladaniva
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A Lada Niva for a new lease of life
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Post by Ladaniva on Dec 20, 2011 12:59:09 GMT 2
Hi keithbatkins, So by the way I see you live near me (I am in Springs). It is up to you to decide to use a mechanical fan or not (or electric fans, or even both). Where you want to fit an electric fan is also only a personal thing (in front or behind - I prefer behind the radiator because on a 4 x 4 I think it is more protected). As long as you use a cowl with the mechanical fan there is nothing wrong with it. I mean it worked for ages to cool engines why will it now be a problem? What I did notice on this forum is that quite a few Ladas run around without the cowl around the fan. It will work until one day when you need maximum cooling then mega destruction (even death if you get stuck on SA roads as it is now - lost two friends/family already and waiting for the next to die (killed in cold blood). Take your chances, or simply fit the cowl, keep your hoses in good condition and change the anti-freeze at least every winter. The reasons why every single new car on the market will come with an electric fan and not mechanical/fixed fan anymore are: Economy Noise Less maintenance Good electric fans are also dirt cheap now, due to economy of scale. I suggest that the more electric things you add the more you must maintain the battery of your Niva. See Ronnie's recent post; all his batteries lasted nine years - simply because he does not leave it to the alternator alone. (I posted a link yesterday to a site that will enable you to become one of the elite in SA 4 x 4 circles that owns a single battery for more than five years)! Now you can not say you did not know. Regards, Fanus
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dimitris
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Post by dimitris on Dec 20, 2011 13:23:26 GMT 2
Hi all Fanus and Ronnie I agree with what you say Fanus……I know that there is a double pulley...... Anyway ...... perhaps to install 2 electric fans ...... perhaps to install the alty at the other side ...... but later because is winter now! The reasons for replacing the alternator were 1. The standard alty 45A had begun to noise from the bearings and needs repair. 2. I had more electrical loads (one bar 4X100 W spot lights onto the roof rack, 2X55 W fog lights, an 25W vhf\uhf.... etc) but even without these extra loads when all standard electrical loads of the car were ON...... the voltage was less than 12volts! Now I have a battery 75ah and everything is working normally and the voltage does not less than 12.6 volts. Ronnie ....I did not know the company "National Luna "...... nice things but expensive! Off topic....I want to make a construction camping trailer ... (I have the trailer and I want to customize the tent). I've seen a few companies from Australia and USA to take some ideas. I think that you know about them. If you know anything about homemade camping trailers.... some websites, please send to me (pm). Keith You must put the cowl, so the fan will have better performance, and is wrong to reverse the wires of the electric fan….. Ronnie or Fanus… please explain why.... ;D ;D Regards, Dimitris
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Ladaniva
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A Lada Niva for a new lease of life
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Post by Ladaniva on Dec 20, 2011 13:23:51 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie,
I can not agree more with you that two alternators with only two batteries is the best to do. It was indeed not my initial idea when I recently started to convert the electrical system of my Niva for the extra load (I opted for a bigger alternator with a mother of a deep cycle battery with cranking oomph - not all deep cycles are good for cranking).
That said, with the electric goodie from Planmypower two deep cycles with one big alternator will also fly the kite on long 4 x 4 trips. (My space is a bit restricted with the supercharger and an air-con that I want to fit).
I am also toying with the idea to just use a gas operated deep freezer instead of the normal Engel etc.(because on one or two trips I actually did well with just a few cooler boxes and lots of ice).
Regards,
Fanus
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Post by ronnie on Dec 20, 2011 13:56:06 GMT 2
Hi Keith
We all have our preferences as to where to fit an electric fan. I prefer the outside as then you can still fit the mechanical one if required. It is not just a simple matter of reversing the rotation of the fan as it was made as either to suck or blow. If you run it in the opposite direction to which it was designed you will loose efficiency. Try it in both directions and you will find it blows far less air when running in the "wrong" direction. As far as the inside cowl goes it should be fitted at all times. It is an integral part of the cooling system. I know there are plenty of members who do not have it fitted. The day will come when they will will regret it. All fans need a cowl to be efficent.
Ronnie
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Post by ronnie on Dec 20, 2011 14:01:55 GMT 2
Hi Dimitris
I have tried various combinations over the years with dual battery systems including home made ones and have come to the conclusion that 2 alternators and 2 batteries are the easiest.
Ronnie
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Post by ronnie on Dec 20, 2011 14:14:35 GMT 2
Hi Fanus
I have bought a number of 12volt freezers over the years and eventually settled with a National Luna double door unit that is very power efficent. Unfortunatly they are very expensive (like R12000). You pay for quality and I can vouch for them as I have been through their factory and was very impressed. The big problem with the gas freezers is when the ambient temp gets into the 40`s they cease to work. It all depends on how long you intend being away from civilization as to what you buy. A proper quality compressor driven unit should be capable of maintaining minus18 at 40 ambient. With a solar panel and occasional running you should be able to last almost indefinately. I do not like Engel as the compressor is only found in Engel and all other makes use a danfoss compressor.
Ronnie
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Post by ronnie on Dec 20, 2011 14:23:27 GMT 2
Hi Dimitris
I don`t know much about camping trailers, as I would never want to drag one through the deep sand we encounter here in Southern Africa. I have always been in the fortunate position of being able to buy a proper roof top tent but If it will help I will dig up a few pictures of one to try to give you ideas so you can perhaps make one. Again these are very expensive to buy and when you look at them, someone with a heavy duty sewing machine and some experience could make one. I can get my hands on one just now which is not mounted on a trailer or roof rack so it will be easy to take some pictures to help you. Let me know.
Ronnie
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dimitris
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Post by dimitris on Dec 20, 2011 15:00:03 GMT 2
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Ladaniva
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A Lada Niva for a new lease of life
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Post by Ladaniva on Dec 20, 2011 15:58:35 GMT 2
Hi Dimitris, Yes indeed you needed a bigger alternator with all that load (and probably with some more load to come, because the Greeks like their music)1 . I must admit that I did not know the Niva came with only a 45 amp alternator; it is a bit skimpy in my opinion. My advice to approach the charging system from the perspective of what the battery needs still stands, and is advice very dearly bought by thousands of 4 x 4 enthusiast who stretched their batteries, because (especially modern) alternators are not designed to charge a battery full (hard to believe but true). A view that you maybe not have considered is that you actually may have solved your charging problem when you fitted the 75 amp/hour battery, even with the 45 amp alternator! (although I think a 45 amp alternator is stretching it a bit) and if you rather took the supply to the main lights directly from the alternator (via relays) to prevent voltage drop. Never underestimate voltage drop. Adding just the bigger battery would only have worked if you charged your battery correctly and regularly with a normal, good quality battery charger. Just a simple calculation to explain: The lights you mention is +-500 Watt if all on at one time. Divide that by the volts (12 volt system). You consume about 41 Amp as long as the mentioned lights are all on continuously. Your (full) 75 amp hour battery can light all the lights mentioned for +-1.8 hours continuously without the help of the alternator (if allowed to discharge completely). If we assume that your battery is 60% full during normal use your battery alone will power all the lights for one hour. Your driving lights should consume about additional eight amps max (reserve of +- 30 amps going from the alternator to the battery with a 45 watt alternator). I doubt if you will drive with all your lights on in Greece for one hour continuously? Unfortunately with a normal alternator the above scenario of 1.8 hours of all lights on is very unlikely because the battery will only be 60 to 70 % full max under normal use (alternator only used to charge the battery). Also remember that the battery must never go under 10.5 volts (amp/hour ratings are therefore sometimes misleading to the man on the street because a normal 80 amp hour rated battery with a four amp load will take 20 hours to discharge, but to go below 10.5 volts at any stage will destroy it.) To be fair to manufacturers they normally give figures allowing for the buffer of 10.5 volt. To summerise: Even with a standard Niva alternator and a much bigger battery you should have enough amps left in the battery to start and use some extra lights if you charge the battery regularly with a good quality battery charger (because you use the full capacity of the battery then). The battery will also last years longer, because properly charged full batteries last for years. Ronnie's 4 x 4 batteries lasted nine years already. Regards, Fanus
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dimitris
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Post by dimitris on Dec 20, 2011 17:01:05 GMT 2
Hi Fanus I was confused .......a little bit I know that the alternator is not there only to charge the battery. When the motor runs, the alternator supplying all the electrical loads and charge the battery. If the power of the alty is not enough, then the battery supplies the power missing. I mean that the battery should not be discharged when the alternator has enough power to supply the loads....... Unfortunately I can not write better in English Yes..... Niva 1600 alternator 45 A
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Post by ronnie on Dec 20, 2011 19:16:21 GMT 2
Hi Dimitris
That is exactly a roof top tent mounted on a trailer.
Ronnie
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dimitris
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Post by dimitris on Dec 20, 2011 20:11:40 GMT 2
Hi Dimitris That is exactly a roof top tent mounted on a trailer. Ronnie Yes ... I understand what you mean. I need to do all the construction outside, in the garden...... and now it's cold and raining ....... ;D
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Post by Charles on Dec 20, 2011 20:37:22 GMT 2
Sounds like fun Dimitris.
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dimitris
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Post by dimitris on Dec 20, 2011 21:09:50 GMT 2
Sounds like fun Dimitris. what you mean?.....the weather?
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Post by Charles on Dec 20, 2011 22:02:38 GMT 2
Yes. That is Niva weather. Cold and wet. Just the way I like it!
Charles
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Ladaniva
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Post by Ladaniva on Dec 21, 2011 16:02:37 GMT 2
Hi Dimitris, Please pardon if I confused you about the size of the 45 Amp alternator maybe possibly being adequate for your application. This may make it a bit clearer: The electrical systems of standard cars (like the Niva) is designed to use both the alternator and the battery in combination to power the electrical equipment (for efficiency and economical reasons). So, if you increase the electrical demand on the electrical system you must first look at the way you are going to put the extra demand on the system. For example; if you are going to use a lot of electrical power continuously (like with a full house high output sound system that you use daily) you may have to increase the size of both the alternator and the battery. If you just want to power your off-road lights for a limited period you may get away with just a bigger battery (because the alternator will have enough time to recharge the battery - for normal use and to start the vehicle afterward). Please note that I do not criticize you for fitting a bigger alternator, or for installing a bigger alternator and a bigger battery. I think it is a good thing for a serious 4 x 4 (like yours). I am just trying to add value by pointing out that the alternator is very seldom to blame for a shortfall in electrical current, and that the lack of proper battery maintenance (and knowledge) is a more likely reason for electrical power supply problems in most 4 x 4's (and batteries not lasting). The fact that the electrical system of standard cars and 4 x 4's are not designed for additional electrical load is the reason why companies like Plan My Power (www.planmypower.co.za) exist. There are also hundreds (if not thousands) of companies selling aftermarket bigger alternators for this very reason. They all know very well that standard alternators can not charge a battery full, and very few will advise you that by just by maintaining your battery properly/correctly you increase the capacity of your battery by 30% (and it will last years longer and maintain (almost)maximum capacity for years longer). I am including the attached just to show how much the capacity of batteries fall with (normal) use. I did get written permission to use the information from Plan My Power. Regards, Fanus Attachments:
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2012 20:10:21 GMT 2
Hi guys,
I'm planning on installing a dual battery system to run a fridge and inverter for when we go camping. I also plan on installing a few spotlights and possibly a winch somewhere in the distant future.
I need some advice regarding an alternator upgrade. Would a 90 or 100 amp bosch be sufficient or should I be looking for something even bigger?
Thanks
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spikes
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Post by spikes on Aug 11, 2012 20:40:43 GMT 2
Ronnie would probably be the best member to advise on this. I am sure he will pop in and offer his expertise
Spikes
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Post by Charles on Aug 11, 2012 20:58:18 GMT 2
Conrad are you going to install a proper duel battery system? I had lots of shit with a home made system Friday at work.
Charles
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2012 21:27:30 GMT 2
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Post by ronnie on Aug 11, 2012 21:34:50 GMT 2
Hi Conrad
If you want to use a good dual battery system you could try National Luna. It is available in most off road centres in SA. They are based in Edenvale if you want to go to the factory where they will give you all the advice you need. I did use their system and found it to be very reliable. I also tried my "own" system and as far as I am concerned it was perfect and just as cheap as the NL system. Simply use 2 x 90 amp alternators and 2 batteries. I used one for every thing including the winch and the other for the National Luna double door deep freeze and fridge. You can mount the second alternator on the opposite side where you would mount the aircon compressor. You can arrange the circuits / batteries to suit your own needs. Just make sure you use the correct size of wiring and fuse everything correctly.
Ronnie
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2012 21:52:28 GMT 2
Thanks for the feedback ronnie.
I've already taken the plunge and bought the dc-dc charger though,and largely for the same reasons you prefered 2 alternators. That is because the only way to ensure the both batteries get charged properly is to have 2 seperate charging circuits.
I did consider using 2 alternators but chose this route,as it still gives me the option of fitting an aircon later on.
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Roons
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Post by Roons on Aug 11, 2012 22:27:28 GMT 2
Hi. I am new to the 4x4 world but why cant u just use a 90amp to charge both batterys? Shurly it will charge both after a long drive?
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Post by ronnie on Aug 11, 2012 22:57:33 GMT 2
Hi Conrad
The best way is to experiment and chose the best way for your particular needs. The reason I prefer the 2 alternator route was we were always in the bush far from help and if one alternator gave grief we always had a back up.
Ronnie
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Post by ronnie on Aug 11, 2012 23:07:23 GMT 2
Hi Ruan
Yes the one alternator will charge both batteries, but eventually you will end up with one charged battery and one partially charged. The battery which reaches a full charge first will cut the alternator output and prevent the other battery from getting a full charge. Most of the dual battery systems work this way so they are not completely ideal but they do work for most people. You can always occasionally charge the batteries separately with a charger. That is why I like 2 alternators you then have 2 separate systems.
Ronnie
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Post by Charles on Aug 11, 2012 23:12:16 GMT 2
Thanks Ronnie.
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Post by ronnie on Aug 11, 2012 23:21:20 GMT 2
Hi Conrad
I have just noticed your other post. I had the solenoid type for 10 years and never had a problem. The other reason for the 2 alternators was the fact I was charging 7 deep cycle batteries so one alternator was not feasible. I also had a solar panel to charge one battery if we were parked in the bush for long periods. The reason for 7 batteries was I had 4 new deep cycle ones left over from a batch we bought for a UPS and as I did not (personally) pay for them I used them but they were only about 40 amp capacity each and were fed from the second alternator. I did not carry this weight in the Niva but had it in the Landy.
Ronnie
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Post by Charles on Aug 12, 2012 1:02:14 GMT 2
Ronnie what was activating the solenoid? Or was it a manual switch?
Charles
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2012 6:43:10 GMT 2
With the niva space is very limited, so I'm only going to be able to fit one extra battery in the engine bay.
Because I can't increase the size of my battery, I'm trying to make the charging system for the battery quite efficient.
The campsite we are going has a generator, but it only runs a few hours a day, so I will also be running two 80watt solar panels. The nice thing with this dc-dc charger, is that it has a built in solar mppt. It also automatically takes the load off the battery and runs it off the solar panel/alternator when they are working.This allows the battery to be recharged faster.
I'm still not sure what size alternator ill need though? Ronnie you say you were running a bank of 7 batteries off a 90 amp alternator, so it looks like this would be sufficient?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2012 7:00:56 GMT 2
Hi ruan,
This is the first time I'm trying this, so I'm also learning as I go.
You can run two batteries off one alternator as ronnie explained. There are other factors that influence how much each of the batteries gets charged, like having two different types of batteries, eg a normal cranking battery and a deep cycle battery and the distance of each battery from the alternator.
Deep cycle batteries don't get charged properly from an alternator setup as typically the cranking battery gets full first and stops them charging further. They also prefer being charged with a 3 stage smart charger, like the c-tek or benton chargers. If you run them off an alternator, they will work but not as efficiently as they could have.
The second part I mentioned was the distance from the alternator. Its not really an issue in the niva as the batteries will be next to each other. In many other vehicles, the deep cycle gets installed in the back of the car. You then get voltage drop over the 3 or so meters of cable. Instead of the battery getting 13.5v for exampe it will only get 13 or maybe even less depending on the size of the cable used.
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