|
Post by ronnie on Jul 21, 2011 19:40:58 GMT 2
Hi Spikes
It is more likely to be old age since as I am retired I can hibernate when it is cold ;D
Ronnie
|
|
Ventzel
Senior Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 412
Registered: Aug 3, 2010 22:30:24 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by Ventzel on Jul 21, 2011 19:52:50 GMT 2
The content of all greases is oil mixed with soap. In different specifications.
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Jul 21, 2011 20:03:13 GMT 2
Hi Marius
I think what Ventz is referring to is when the oil and soap in the grease separate there may only be soap in some parts of the box and no oil. The person to answer this is Vincent and I know he is still not home tonight.
Ronnie
|
|
vincentc
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 1,130
Registered: Mar 16, 2011 17:59:16 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by vincentc on Jul 21, 2011 21:45:16 GMT 2
I use 85W/140, same as into the diffs but is possible to use thicker. Probably Vincent will recommend something. Even to use the thickest oil on the market is better than grease. Rgds Ventz Hi Ventz I agree with your use of 85W-140 in the steering box. If we had to put an SAE 250 in, you would develop muscles like Russian Olgarina shot put athlete. The EP and AW additives in the SAE140 oil are sufficient for the task. Regards Vincent
|
|
|
Post by marius on Jul 22, 2011 8:30:05 GMT 2
Hi all It is a very common practise down under to fill a leaky steering box with grease. See here >> www.ladaniva.co.uk/baxter/resources/Oil.htmPenrite Oil is also manufacturing a “self-levelling†grease suitable for veteran/vintage and some classic car steering boxes. Perhaps Vincent can comment in the latter? Lithium based grease has a dropping point of 190 - 220 degrees. Recommended usage is up to 120 degrees. I am not sure if the RHD box gets anywhere near that temp range? Marius
|
|
vincentc
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 1,130
Registered: Mar 16, 2011 17:59:16 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by vincentc on Jul 22, 2011 9:06:39 GMT 2
Hi Marius
A "self levelling" grease has a consistincy of 00/000 This grease runs easier than honey and is termed a semi fluid grease.
The temperature that the SB will see will probably only be an issue if you do loads of heavy load slow speed driving.
Mixing the oil and grease will cause the dropping point to change.
Marius I will PM you a grease spec and supplier you can contact for the suitable lubricant.
Oil before a grease - ALWAYS !!!
Regards Vincent
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Jul 22, 2011 9:15:21 GMT 2
Hi Marius
using grease for a steering box is done NORMALLY because owners are too lazy to remove the box to fix it. There is really only one seal to be concerned about but unfortunately it is a professional job to remove the pitman arm to be able to replace the seal. You will notice that Baxters site also mentions GL4 for the steering box, and Vincent will tell you GL4 is unsuitable. I would recommend members stick with the factory recommendations, and take into account South Africa is a warm to very warm country so watch which viscosity of oil you use.
Ronnie
|
|
|
Post by marius on Jul 22, 2011 9:40:30 GMT 2
Thanks Vincent I am looking forward to my PM! Marius
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Jul 22, 2011 11:12:32 GMT 2
Hi Marius
If you are going to change the lubricant in the steering box I would appreciate a picture of you after you have removed the old stuff ;D ;D ;D
Ronnie
|
|
|
Post by jaco1978 on Jul 22, 2011 12:36:41 GMT 2
I'm pondering more and more to use some grease and blame it on laziness. The oil business sounds dirty. Never-mind the pun. ;D
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Jul 22, 2011 13:54:36 GMT 2
Hi Jaco
If the box does not leak use oil. If it leaks use grease until till you have time to strip the box out and fix properly.
Ronnie
|
|
Nikki Lada
Senior Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 353
Registered: Jun 6, 2011 8:12:13 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by Nikki Lada on Jul 22, 2011 21:57:13 GMT 2
Hi Guys When Keith requested advice earlier on in this thread he first tried the oil, which leaked out overnight, and then queried the suitability of Castrol MS NLGI 2 Lithium multi purpose grease. Vincent’s response to this was: “My preference for the steering box would be a sloppy grease (It should run when held sideways). As long as the grease is an EP (Extreme Pressure) grease you will be fine. The Castrol MS is Molybdenum Disulfide grease which is perfect for the sliding friction found on the steering box”Based on this information, and as I couldn’t find evidence of much oil in Nikita’s Steering Box with a ‘dipstick’ I decided to go the same route and bought the Castrol MS grease. In view of everything that has been said subsequently, please advise whether I can still use this grease or whether I must use the NLGI 00 or NLGI 000 EP grease. If I must use the latter please advise where it is available. I was going to do it this weekend but subsequently decided that a trip to Mapungubwe National Park (traveling there and back through the Kruger National Park) would be far more exciting and managed to get bookings a few days ago. NIKKI
|
|
|
Post by marius on Jul 22, 2011 22:09:14 GMT 2
It is a strange one isn't it Nikki! ;D ;D ;D Personally I think your MS grease should be just fine. I discovered that there is however another grease manufactured by Penrite Oil specifically for the steering box of older cars. Vincent is going to PM me in this regard - presumably around availability. I fully agree with Vincent that the prescribed oil would be the better option, but if it keeps on spilling I would prefer to use grease instead. I think you can safely use the MS grease - and still enjoy your trip Marius
|
|
Nikki Lada
Senior Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 353
Registered: Jun 6, 2011 8:12:13 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by Nikki Lada on Jul 23, 2011 6:38:50 GMT 2
It is a strange one isn't it Nikki! ;D ;D ;D ............... Marius It is indeed Marius! ;D
|
|
|
Post by danie on Jul 23, 2011 7:00:14 GMT 2
I have just used a good CV joint grease , and I am not aware of any problems yet.
Danie
|
|
spikes
Moderator
Posts: 3,689
Location: Mpumalanga
Town: Nelspruit
Registered: Apr 19, 2010 19:39:51 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by spikes on Jul 23, 2011 8:24:49 GMT 2
Hi Nikki The Castrol MS as originally advised will be fine. As that is what I have on hand, that will go into my NIVA's steering box when I get around to checking it. CV sloppy grease will also be fine (as per Danie's post above. Enjoy the visit to Greeffswald!
Spikes
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Jul 23, 2011 9:18:45 GMT 2
Hi Nikki
Do not rely on the dipstick method as It gives little indication as to how much oil is in the box. As I said before if you remove the lid and let the oil run out to the level of the top of the box and then replace the top and try a dip stick you will show no oil,yet the components with the exception of the adjusting nut are totally covered. I have checked this. I can`t remember your previous posts, but if you have not tried filling with oil, you should try and see what happens.
Ronnie
|
|
|
Post by marius on Jul 23, 2011 10:22:08 GMT 2
If you use a dipstick try and get it in as far as possible in as straight a line as possible. The box is about 7cm deep and the cover should give you another 1 cm. If you still don't see any or very little oil there is not enough oil in the box. I get 5cm of lube on the plastic dipstick I use.
Marius
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Jul 23, 2011 14:17:58 GMT 2
Hi All
Forget about a dipstick it is totally unnecessary. Simply fill to the underside of the filler, and within a couple of days the level will be correct when the oil has leaked from the breather. If you are not sure about what I am saying simply remove the cover and you will see that even now the level with no lid is very nearly correct.
Ronnie
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Jul 23, 2011 15:07:08 GMT 2
Hi All To try and show the levels in the steering box I have taken the top off mine and let the oil drain down to the level of the front of the box. (the lowest point when open). you will see from the photo that even now ALL components except the adjusting bolt are in oil. If you were to use a "dipstick" it would show no oil, and if the cover was in place with the correct level of oil it would show about 2 cms. Even with the cover removed there is enough oil to lubricate the moving parts. When the cover is on and the oil has leaked down to the breather level, every component in the box will be more than covered with oil. Providing your box does not leak it would be better to fill with oil as per the factory recommendations. Ronnie Attachments:
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Jul 23, 2011 15:08:35 GMT 2
Hi All. Here is another view. Ronnie Attachments:
|
|
Nikki Lada
Senior Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 353
Registered: Jun 6, 2011 8:12:13 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by Nikki Lada on Jul 23, 2011 15:44:58 GMT 2
Thank you guys for your various responses and for the photographs. I didn't get a chance to do anything today but I'll sort it out when I get back. Thanks again. NIKKI
|
|
|
Post by marius on Jul 23, 2011 15:56:25 GMT 2
Nikki I hope you have lots of fun - post some pics of you can.
Ronnie I think a dipstick would make life easier for some of us. That way some of us can easily tell if there is lube in the box or not. Well at least I find it fairly easy to detect the level of lube in my box - maybe it's because something is missing?!
I can't open your pics at the moment - I will try a bit later.
Marius
|
|
vincentc
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 1,130
Registered: Mar 16, 2011 17:59:16 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by vincentc on Jul 25, 2011 21:07:59 GMT 2
Hi all It is a very common practise down under to fill a leaky steering box with grease. See here >> www.ladaniva.co.uk/baxter/resources/Oil.htmPenrite Oil is also manufacturing a “self-levelling†grease suitable for veteran/vintage and some classic car steering boxes. Perhaps Vincent can comment in the latter? Lithium based grease has a dropping point of 190 - 220 degrees. Recommended usage is up to 120 degrees. I am not sure if the RHD box gets anywhere near that temp range? Marius The following is from "The Lubricating Grease Guide" ISBN 978-0961393519. "Greases fail more rapidly as temperature of operation increases. The most obvious reason for failure lies in the melting point of the thickener or dropping point of the grease. The latter involves a complex of melting and bleed. Evaporation may be significant at high temperatures. Oxidation also increases rapidly as temperature rises. There are useful guidelines for heat resistance of greases in service which take all these factors into consideration. "Most mineral-oil-based greases (of adequate dropping point) will operate successfully to about 250 degrees F (121 degrees C). A smaller number can handle 300 degrees F (149 degrees C). A few mineral-oil-based greases can operate to about 350 degrees F (177 degrees C). Around this temperature, synthetic fluids are preferred or required. As service temperature rises, frequency of lubricant addition and relubrication must increase. "In industrial service, the following may be considered reasonable relubrication intervals for rolling bearings (assuming eight work hours per day): * 180 degrees F (82 degrees C), 6 months * 220 degrees F (104 degrees C), 3 months * 300 degrees F (149 degrees C), 1 month * 380 degrees F (193 degrees C), 1 week * 460 degrees F (238 degrees C), 1 day "These guidelines assume reasonable-size bearings operating at usual speeds and loads. If speed is high, bearing large, or load severe, relubrication intervals could be even shorter."" In summary, a grease will NEVER provide the kind of lubrication you would get using an oil as a grease may only contain between 20% - 90% oil dependant on the manufacturer. The use of a grease, semi-fluid or not, can only lead to lubrication issues down the line. Regards Vincent
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Jul 26, 2011 10:09:52 GMT 2
Hi Vincent
Thanks for your explanation. All I am going to say regarding grease in a steering box is it is fine as a very temporary measure, but should be TEMPORARY. If you find your rear diff is leaking you do not fill it with grease, you fix the leak and refill with the correct oil. Why should a very expensive steering box be any different and be left with an inferior grease for a lubricant ?. I did ask Chris Swales for a price to overhaul the steering box about a year ago, and they said they had the parts and the cost would be about R2500. At this price I think all members should look after their steering boxes.
Ronnie
|
|
|
Post by marius on Jul 26, 2011 11:31:44 GMT 2
Thanks for posting all the info Vincent Ronnie it would be great if you can get your temperature probe into the box after a run to get a proper reading. Just mind the very hot manifold nearby ;D Marius
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Jul 26, 2011 13:55:43 GMT 2
Hi Marius
It is not very often I do a meaningful run but if I do I will try to take a reading without burning myself. It would be better to do this in the heat of summer and certainly not today as it is COLD.
Ronnie
|
|
vincentc
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 1,130
Registered: Mar 16, 2011 17:59:16 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by vincentc on Jul 26, 2011 18:57:49 GMT 2
I am planning to do a trip of about 500km in the morning and will then try to get a temperature.
Regards Vincent
|
|
spikes
Moderator
Posts: 3,689
Location: Mpumalanga
Town: Nelspruit
Registered: Apr 19, 2010 19:39:51 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by spikes on Jul 26, 2011 19:20:09 GMT 2
Hi all Thanks Vincent for that interesting information on grease applications. I do not think that we are comparing apples to apples if one would apply the tables that V supplied DIRECTLY to the lubrication of the gears in the NIVA steering box. Nowhere near the same pressure is applied to the gears in the box as to a roller bearing in an Industrial application. All one should require in the steering box is to avoid metal to metal friction. That said, I would prefer to have oil in the box but not if it leaks badly. Then it will be sloppy CV joint grease. By the way, I have not yet checked the box on the Bongol (maybe scared) but the fact that it is sweating sets my mind at rest. At least till it gets warmer. Cheers Spikes
|
|
spikes
Moderator
Posts: 3,689
Location: Mpumalanga
Town: Nelspruit
Registered: Apr 19, 2010 19:39:51 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by spikes on Jul 26, 2011 19:30:43 GMT 2
Hi I think Marius mentioned that he used "red CV" grease. Here is the link to the SA importers: www.chemsailoils.comRegards Spikes
|
|