|
Post by Ari Bezuidenhout on Apr 17, 2011 19:24:55 GMT 2
There are 2 types of tensioner and 3 types of tensioning shoe. They have been designed for different engines but based on the part no. some seem interchangable.
Tensioner 21213-1006060 Shoe 21213-1006090 For 21213, 21214-10, 21216 and 212146 LHD and RHD 1700 carb and TBI Ladas
Tensioner 2101-1006060 Shoe 2103-1006090 For 21217 LHD and RHD 1600 Ladas
Shoe 21214-1006090 For MPFI engined Ladas and use 21214-1006060-01 tensioner(hydraulic)
Ari
|
|
|
Post by Charles on Apr 17, 2011 19:32:04 GMT 2
Thanks Ari for clearing that up.
Charles
|
|
|
Post by marje46nuns on Apr 17, 2011 23:39:52 GMT 2
Thanks for answering all my queries guys and thank you Marius for the illustration of that smart looking engine. I really appreciate it and now understand what has to be done when doing it ‘by the book’. Now that I do know, I think I tend to agree with Ronnie that the wheel method looks easier. ;D ; Ronnie - thanks also for checking the tensioner for me and I hope you solve the problem of the missing millimeters soon. ;D ;D Ari - thank you so much for clarifying the part nos for the tensioner and shoe - I can now get on with my order. NIKKI
|
|
|
Post by marius on Apr 18, 2011 8:40:23 GMT 2
Hi all BIG thanks to everyone for their valuable input in what we all should regard as vital in keeping our Ladas in good health Regards Marius PS - I would love to have a brand new engine like that - pink leads included! ;D
|
|
|
Post by danie on Apr 19, 2011 3:01:42 GMT 2
Hi Danie. I hope you have a speedy recovery. Then I bought the tensioner the big pin was pushed back and the cap lock. So when I loosen the cap, the big pin jumped to the original full position of 25mm. The tensioner did not got dismantled, so I do not know if the small spring is fitted or not. Sorry can not answer your question. If your modified tensioner work, which it did for more than 60000km, it is OK. I will only fit a retainer washer to keep the small pin in place with minimum movement on it. If the spring did loose some tension, rather replace the tensioner. The reason I busy replacing my tensioner is due to that the collet start loosing it's grip and that I also suspect that the spring did loose some tension. My tensioner did 215000km. Regards. Hercules Hi Hercules I am quite convinced that Ventz and Chris Swales has been the only suppliers who ever touched the Tensioner on my Lada - so I think there is a huge possibility that one of them have modified this Tensioner. Another possibility is that my Tensioner is an aftermarket version , which does not have a small spring. At this stage I am quite convinced that the little spring is not needed - because the Tensioner worked very well . In fact - I often wondered why most owners often mentioned problems with noisy Chains, while the Chain on my Lada never became noisy before - not even when the car has done up to more than 15 000 kms between the usual adjustments. While you have bought the new Tensioner from Ventz, I think it would be very interesting to know whether your new Tensioner has got a small spring or not. Who knows - maybe Ventz do sell a different type of Tensioner , or maybe he has done this "modification" himself. I was hoping that Ventz would pass some comments regarding the Tensioners himself - but it seems that the only way how we will ever clear this issue, would be if you would be so kind to strip your new Tensioner - and to see if it has a small spring or not. I hope to send a pic of the little wear on my Shoe as soon as possible. Danie
|
|
|
Post by marius on Apr 19, 2011 9:38:15 GMT 2
Hi Danie
You know by now that I am a big supporter of original parts but having said that if something else works it is great - and some of them work even better than the original part.
I do however still believe that the little spring plays an important part in the setup.
As far as engine/chain noise is concerned I believe that in most cases it is probably due to lack of regular service from either the current or previous owner. Regular adjustment of the tensioner should in my opinion lengthen the life of the shoe and chain.
Regards Marius
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Apr 19, 2011 9:55:23 GMT 2
Hi Marius and Danie
There is no need to strip or remove the tensioner from the vehicle to check the small spring. Simply remove the cap and if the spring is present you will feel it pushing the pin back out by 0,02 to 0.05mm when you now release it. It is very important for the spring to be present as it`s function is to allow the small gap already mentioned to absorb any small shock before the small pin stops all outward movement of the tensioner. In my opinion the tensioner should be exactly as shown in the manual. I also think the tensioner Danie has is the same as Charles`s in that it has been opened and assembled incorrectly and with parts missing.
Ronnie
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Apr 19, 2011 10:07:34 GMT 2
Hi Marius
You mention lack of maintenance by previous owners as the possible cause of the problem of the chain and the wear on the components. I will go further than that, I think this is the total cause of all the adverse reports we hear about the Niva, and the less than complementary comments passed by some people.
Ronnie
|
|
|
Post by marius on Apr 19, 2011 10:35:25 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie I do agree 100% with what you say - sadly though no matter how well you look after the car wear and tear will eventually take it's toll BUT a happy Lada is one that is serviced at the regular intervals. Marius
|
|
|
Post by danie on Apr 19, 2011 18:14:40 GMT 2
Hi Marius and Danie There is no need to strip or remove the tensioner from the vehicle to check the small spring. Ronnie Hi Ronnie / Marius Ronnie, Hercules has not installed his new tensioner yet - so it would be very easy to take his tensioner apart to have a look whether it has a small spring, and whether the small pin has a step or not. Hercules also mentioned to me that the big pin on his new tensioner just popped out when he loosened the Cap. This should not have happened - because on my Tensioner there is a small circlip which prevents the big pin to pop out. So I think there is reason to believe that his tensioner has not been assembled properly by the Russians, or somebody might have opened the tensioner for some or other reason. Marius, although I love my Lada , I will be the last person on earth who would try to convince everyone that Lada Nivas are 100 % perfect, and that the quality of all parts are the same (or better) in comparison with similar components of many other cars on the market. I owned various German cars for a total of 28 years during my lifetime (VW, Audi, and Mencedes Benz) - so as far as quality is concerned, I think I do know what I am talking about. For instance, I owned an Audi for 18 years - and after 370 000kms on the clock, I never had to replace the waterpump, or radiator cap - and the engine never overheated! And I never even considered replacing a radiator on one of those cars. Can the same be said about Ladas in general ? Please do not get me wrong , I still love my Lada to bits , but as far as some components are concerned, I think it makes a lot of sense to try and find compatible components of better quality. Danie
|
|
|
Post by Charles on Apr 19, 2011 19:07:30 GMT 2
Danie I second that. Its sad but true.
Charles
|
|
|
Post by hotstuff on Apr 19, 2011 19:41:59 GMT 2
hi chaps firstly the small spring is needed as per original part. and yes due to lack of correct maintenance by previous or current owners the shoe and tensioner take a beating. having worked on over 40 ladas almost every lada that came to me. Either the tensioner seized up or it was not set correctly or just plain forgotten about. resulted in chain slack and chain guide problems. hence you get a few which was moded with tensioners being extended and incorrect shoe fitted. the tensioner only really seizes up if not set every 10000km or so or lack of oil change for lubrication etc. also when the shoe is badly warn and the chain glides on the bolt causing cut marks it diverts heat to the pin causing it to seize up. the tensioner should never have to be taken apart to set again this is where some back yard mechanics etc forget how this is meant to work. very seldom does the chain stretch. only if the tension is not set on a regular basis. my rule is check and tension every 5000km. the car service / manual states service intervals at 15000km. well i would only suggest that far if it was serviced correctly etc. also the cam setting gap should be checked at least every 20000km- 30000km due to the age of the cars etc. so many lada's I have found for it to be incorrect etc.. THIS IS MY 5c AND HAS NOT FAILED ME YET. REGARDS MIKE
|
|
Hercules
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Lada - your peace of mind to take on the world's vast landscapes.
Posts: 785
Location: Gauteng
Town: Benoni
Registered: Oct 2, 2009 11:55:41 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by Hercules on Apr 19, 2011 20:20:23 GMT 2
Hi Danie.
As I mentioned to you that the big pin did jump out when I loosen the cap, the pin did not dismantle it self. The big pin was purely pushed back and then the cap was locked. The big pin was only sticking out about 15mm.
After loosen the cap the big pin jump out and stopped against the circlip, which indicate to me that the big pin was now totally released. Now the big pin was sticking out 25mm.
I did as Ronnie suggests and push the pin in and it went in about 0.3mm and when release the small pin again, it came back to the original position. This indeed indicate that there must be a small spring or something that pushed the small pin back and did create a small gap between the big and the small pin.
The manual indicate that the gap is filled with oil that acts as a damper when the chain strikes. My thought is that the oil also dampen the noise and thus the chain drive also runs quieter.
Regards.
Hercules
|
|
|
Post by marius on Apr 19, 2011 20:29:48 GMT 2
Hi Hercules
There is certainly quite a bit of oil present in the tensioner and the manual's explanation makes sense and I guess it also helps to keep the springs rust free.
Regards Marius
|
|
|
Post by marius on Apr 19, 2011 20:47:22 GMT 2
Hi Danie I also had the "pleasure" of driving a German cars at one time and it is many modern day Russian's dream to drive a German car - esp the luxury ones you mentioned. My first car was a 1600 Golf and at the time I had no clue on how to properly maintain a car. Like many other Golfs her big problem was overheating. I even ran her without a thermostat and anti-freeze at one time after some "good" advice from a friend but it wasn't long before everything rusted to pieces. Also drove an Opel Kadet for years - though the engine was rock solid - everything else packed up after about 120 000kms. My "best car" was probably the Honda Balade 160i. A pleasure to drive and no mechanical issues at all - but went through batteries like crazy. Before I met my wife she also had a Golf (diesel) and spend a fortune (much more than she paid for the car) trying to keep the car on the road. Yes I agree with you the Lada is not 100% at all. Most of the time there is at least three little things that niggles but no other car has given me more pleasure than the Niva! Regards Marius
|
|
|
Post by danie on Apr 20, 2011 5:38:31 GMT 2
Hi Hercules
The main reason why I thought it could be very helpful to have a look at your tensioner's pin, is because I think Ventz or Chris Swales could be selling another type of tensioner - or might be modifying the original tensioner which could be a definate improvement.
I am definately not trying to "push" the so called "mod" on my tensioner at the Forum.
Fact is, as far as I know, only three people ever touched the Tensioner on my Lada:
1. Ventz (his has serviced the Lada untill it has been sold at an auction, and the km reading was 96 541 at Ventz's last invoice)
2 . Chris Swales serviced the Lada completely at about 100 000 kms - and I guess the Tensioner has been adjusted as well.
1. I did all other tensioner settings on the Lada myself, and I did not modify the tensioner at all.
Bear in mind that I bought the Lada while the km reading on the clock was just over 97 000 km, while the km reading was 96 541 at Ventz's last service on the car.
That's why I strongly beleive that Ventz, or Chris Swales are probably involved with another type of Tensioner , or modification which works very well.
If Ventz or Chris Swales are indeed involved in this "mod", I think it would be very stupid of us only to accept "what the book has to say" while none of us have the practical experience which they (Ventz and Chris Swales) definately do have.
That why I think this issue needs to be investigated properly.
Danie
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Apr 20, 2011 9:19:49 GMT 2
Hi Danie
Why anyone would try to modify a tensioner and at the same time do away with the only protection the chain has for any shock transmitted to it is beyond me. I also think the agents would not even remove the cap when doing the tensioning. Also why would they remove a tensioner during a service?. With my limited engineering experience I would need to go with the Factory tensioner as being the best design as it is the only one of the two, to have it`s adjustment being entirely automatic and being the only one to have protection on the timing parts for shock transmitted via the chain. Ventz I am sure would never be involved in such a "MOD". Chris Swales I know nothing about except he never came back to me with my inquiry for spares after visiting him personally.
Ronnie
|
|
Hercules
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Lada - your peace of mind to take on the world's vast landscapes.
Posts: 785
Location: Gauteng
Town: Benoni
Registered: Oct 2, 2009 11:55:41 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by Hercules on Apr 21, 2011 14:11:10 GMT 2
Hi Danie.
There are definitely two types of tensioners. I did open and checked the new tensioner and it got the small spring and retainer washer in. the small pin also got the step and look like the one in the manual.
I also checked the one in the Lada while adjusting the chain tension and got a travel of 5mm on the small pin. This vehicle were never been service or repaired at Ventz or Chris. Further this vehicle was only once at Jan for gearbox repair as it also did not appear on there system.
Yesterday evening I replaced disc pads on the Lada I used to service in the beginning of my Lada days. This Lada is on Jan's books and a lot of repairs and services were done by Jan. Guess what, the tensioner also got a 5mm travel on the small pin. This prove to me that there are definitely 2 different tensioners.
Regards.
Hercules
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Apr 21, 2011 17:36:01 GMT 2
Hi Hercules
Ventz will only be home today so hopefully he will shed some light on the subject. If yours was at Centurion anything is possible. There is no way a tension er with 5mm of play and no spring can function correctly and have the required clearance to protect the chain.
Ronnie
|
|
vincentc
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 1,130
Registered: Mar 16, 2011 17:59:16 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by vincentc on Apr 22, 2011 12:38:39 GMT 2
The spring must be in - End of story.
The only other item that could be affecting the tensioner would be the adjustment shoe. If a 1600 is fitted, the profile is different. As per Ronnie's post perhaps Ventz or Mike can provide insight.
Regards Vincent
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Apr 22, 2011 13:35:01 GMT 2
Hi Hercules
This other tensioner you have, does it have a recess in the end for the small spring?. Please will you look and let us know.
Ronnie
|
|
spikes
Moderator
Posts: 3,689
Location: Mpumalanga
Town: Nelspruit
Registered: Apr 19, 2010 19:39:51 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by spikes on Apr 22, 2011 14:03:48 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie The why I understood Hercules's post, was that "the other tensioner" was from a customer's NIVA that he did a service on, so he may not have direct access to it? regards Spikes
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Apr 22, 2011 18:10:24 GMT 2
Hi Spikes
I thought it was Hercules own tensioner. I have asked him to check if the small pin has the recess for the spring as it is so easy for people when they open this type of thing the spring flies into the sunset. Charles also mentioned his tensioner was I think missing the spring and was incorrectly assembled. I am hoping Ventz will comment.
Ronnie
|
|
Hercules
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Lada - your peace of mind to take on the world's vast landscapes.
Posts: 785
Location: Gauteng
Town: Benoni
Registered: Oct 2, 2009 11:55:41 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by Hercules on Apr 22, 2011 19:56:06 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie.
My tensioner is still in the Lada and will be replaced soon with the new tensioner when I am going to strip the Lada to fit the new tensioner shoe. The same time I am going to fit an electrical fan.
Will strip the tensioner as soon as I replaced it with the new tensioner.
The other tensioner is still in the customer's vehicle and I will have a look as and when the vehicle will come in for a service.
Regards.
Hercules
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Apr 22, 2011 20:52:57 GMT 2
Hi Hercules
I got it wrong I did not realize the tensioner was in a customers car. Hope you have a good weekend.
Ronnie
|
|
Ventzel
Senior Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 412
Registered: Aug 3, 2010 22:30:24 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by Ventzel on Apr 23, 2011 22:30:12 GMT 2
I do never modify anything.
What about tensioners, I do not repair them. Does not make sense. If I try to repair it I'll save to the customer R100 today, but if the timing chain jump he will come to claim guarantee R10000 damages to the engine tomorrow. Don't play games with the drive train mechanism guys. I've seen cracked cylinder heads, broken pistons and bent conrods. But if you like to live dangerously - it's up to you.
Ventz
|
|
|
Post by Charles on Apr 23, 2011 22:44:55 GMT 2
Good advice Ventz. I think that is the safest option. The shoe I bought from you is not needed now so will go into my spares. That's again for supplying it so quickly. As always your service was fantastic.
Charles
|
|
|
Post by marius on Apr 24, 2011 10:11:49 GMT 2
Hi all
I trust it is now clear that for both the 1600 and 1700 Niva the tensioner should have both springs.
The "other one" is clearly either a DIY mod or a "tampered with" part and IT IS NOT RECOMMENDED and should be replaced by the original tensioner - like yesterday.
Regards Marius
|
|
|
Post by Charles on Apr 24, 2011 11:42:09 GMT 2
I also think that mod is very dangerous.
Charles
|
|
vincentc
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 1,130
Registered: Mar 16, 2011 17:59:16 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by vincentc on Apr 24, 2011 19:34:45 GMT 2
Not replacing a modified tensioner is a bit like Russian Roulette....
|
|