Hercules
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Lada - your peace of mind to take on the world's vast landscapes.
Posts: 785
Location: Gauteng
Town: Benoni
Registered: Oct 2, 2009 11:55:41 GMT 2
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Post by Hercules on Apr 16, 2011 20:33:05 GMT 2
Hallo Ronnie.
The easiest way to see if you got the correct shoe is by simply remove the tensioner and see if it got an extension piece fitted to the front pin. the 1600 shoe requires an extra extension of about 16mm to work.
If yours look like the manual or Danie's, then you got 1700 shoe fitted.
Regards.
Hercules
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Post by ronnie on Apr 16, 2011 20:56:47 GMT 2
Hi Hercules
I will check it as soon as the rain clears here as it has been raining all day.
Ronnie
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Hercules
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Lada - your peace of mind to take on the world's vast landscapes.
Posts: 785
Location: Gauteng
Town: Benoni
Registered: Oct 2, 2009 11:55:41 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
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Post by Hercules on Apr 16, 2011 21:00:48 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie.
Do not feel alone, we got the rain and cold weather for the last 3 days. Today is really winter.
Regards.
Hercules
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Post by Ari Bezuidenhout on Apr 16, 2011 21:28:14 GMT 2
Ronnie I suggest you check as the spare tensioning shoe I have is for a 1600 and I got it from. . . . . ;D your friend ;D
Ari
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Post by marje46nuns on Apr 17, 2011 7:39:30 GMT 2
Hi Guys Under reply no. 66 Marius queried the ‘duplicate’ parts of the Camshaft drive shown on page A140 of the Parts Catalogue where two tensioners are indicated with part nos. 2101-1006060 and 21213-1006060. These tensioners are not shown as being interchangeable and there is no other ‘clue’ to indicate which part belongs to which Niva model. As I want one of these I took the opportunity to ask Neil Chowney of Lada UK about it when I queried some prices recently and he advised that the 2101 prefix is the manual one and the 21213 the hydraulic. A very helpful guy and his prices aren’t bad either! NIKKI
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Post by danie on Apr 17, 2011 8:03:09 GMT 2
Hi All
I am a bit sick at the moment and did not have a look at all comments yesterday.
The small Pin on my Tensioner is different from the Pin on the drawing sent by Marius, and there is no small spring in my tensioner. The small Pin on my Tensioner also has no step, as indicated at the drawing
So I assume somebody has modified my Tensioner, or my Tensioner might be a different Version from another Manufacturer.
Hercules, during our telephone conversation you have mentioned that the big Pin on your new Tensioner came loose . Although our Tensioners seemed to be the same, could you please confirm the following:
1. Has your Tensioner got a small spring ?
2. Has your small pin got a step at the end where the "head is?
3. According to the drawing there seem to be a small hole at the pin - does your Pin also have a hole ?
I must admit, I have never seen the drawing of the Tensioner before, and I did not know that my Tensioner has probably been modified.
So I fully agree , there is no reason to remove the Cap an push the pin forward, if there is a small spring involved.
However - in my case this "mod" worked very well, and I regard this" mod" as a great success ! I never experienced any problems with the Tensioner. And on my Tensioner, I still think it is absolutely vital to push the pin forward before the Cap gets tightened.
Just after I bought my Lada, Chris Swales has set the tension on my Lada's Timing Shoe, and I am not sure whether he has done this mod to the Tensioner. I am convinced that Ventz perhaps did all of the other services on my Lada as well.
Jan Pretorius has replaced the wheelbearings on my Lada only.
So if the Pin on my Tensioner has indeed be modified, I think Chris Swales (or Ventz ? )could have been involved in a mod which works very well.
Danie
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Post by marius on Apr 17, 2011 8:48:55 GMT 2
Hi Danie Bad timing to get sick now - I wish you a speedy recovery I am a bit worried about "your mod" on the tensioner as I believe the small spring plays an important part in giving just enough play not to over tighten the chain. I think "your mod" could in fact contribute to premature wear and tear on the shoe? Maybe you should reconsider and get the original tensioner? Regards Marius
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Post by marius on Apr 17, 2011 8:57:16 GMT 2
Hi Nikki
Lada UK is great and considering their currency - they are well priced.
However I am nor entirely convinced with their explanation with regard to the tensioner. They both are manual tensioners as far as I am concerned.
The hydrolic tensioner on page A141 has the prefix - 21214?
I am hoping that Ventz could perhaps give us the correct info?
Regards Marius
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Post by ronnie on Apr 17, 2011 8:57:22 GMT 2
Hi Marius
I fully agree with you, The small spring plays an important role in the operation of the tensioner. I doubt if Ventz would get involved a modification of this nature. It will be interesting to have his views on the matter.
Ronnie
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Post by Charles on Apr 17, 2011 9:01:00 GMT 2
As far as I know Ventz keeps everything origainal and does not use ANY pirate parts except for filter.
Charles
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Post by ronnie on Apr 17, 2011 9:05:15 GMT 2
Hi Danie
If this is a mod I think it is a very dangerous one. If you sell the Niva and someone tensions the chain and follows the factory instructions, and for some reason the pin is out the 5 mm you mention the chain will be under no tension when the cap is tightened. There can only be one thing that then can happen, a very expensive repair bill when the chain jumps a tooth. This is one mod which should be discouraged.
Ronnie
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Post by danie on Apr 17, 2011 9:08:06 GMT 2
Hi Marius
Thanks, I am on heavy medication - so I should recover soon.
My Lada has covered about 60 000 kms since I bought the car, and only very little wear can be seen on the Tensioner. So somebody has done the mod more that 60 000 kms ago - while the Timing Shoe has probably been replaced.
Fact is, the Lada has covered at least about 60 000 kms since this "mod" has been undertaken . I would say the little wear on the shoe looks very "reasonable" after at least 60 000 kms - so I do not think there should be any reason to be worried about over tensioning the Shoe.
I will forward a pic of the wear on the shoe as soon as the weather is clearing and I am feeling better.
Danie
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Post by danie on Apr 17, 2011 9:27:51 GMT 2
As far as I know Ventz keeps everything original and does not use ANY pirate parts except for filter. Charles Hi Charles Ventz has already admitted that he does get his parts from various Suppliers in Europe, because he only use the best parts available. To my mind that means that in some cases there are better quality aftermarket parts available out there, and that the "all original parts are the best quality" attitude is just a fantasy. Ventz also admitted that he sell Seat waterpumps instead of original Lada waterpumps- because of better quality . Danie
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Post by marius on Apr 17, 2011 9:47:17 GMT 2
Looks like this weather is getting to some of our members ;D
I love this "Cape Town" weather!
I will inspect my tensioner/shoe/chain the next time I will do the adjusting.
Danie it would be great if you can post a pic of the wear and tear on the shoe.
Marius
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Hercules
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Lada - your peace of mind to take on the world's vast landscapes.
Posts: 785
Location: Gauteng
Town: Benoni
Registered: Oct 2, 2009 11:55:41 GMT 2
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Post by Hercules on Apr 17, 2011 10:33:30 GMT 2
Hi Danie.
I hope you have a speedy recovery.
Then I bought the tensioner the big pin was pushed back and the cap lock. So when I loosen the cap, the big pin jumped to the original full position of 25mm. The tensioner did not got dismantled, so I do not know if the small spring is fitted or not. Sorry can not answer your question.
If your modified tensioner work, which it did for more than 60000km, it is OK. I will only fit a retainer washer to keep the small pin in place with minimum movement on it.
If the spring did loose some tension, rather replace the tensioner. The reason I busy replacing my tensioner is due to that the collet start loosing it's grip and that I also suspect that the spring did loose some tension. My tensioner did 215000km.
Regards.
Hercules
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Post by marje46nuns on Apr 17, 2011 11:00:09 GMT 2
Hi Marius I see what you’re getting at with regard to the Part Nos for the tensioner. To add to the confusion Valeriy has advised that either tensioner can be used on my vehicle but I’m not too happy with this because there is no interchangeable sign shown in the manual and Neil says they aren’t interchangeable. I can’t understand why the tensioners belonging to Danie and Hercules don’t show a part number because all the original parts usually have a stamp. It will be interesting to see if Ventz can clarify this issue. Regards NIKKI
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Post by marje46nuns on Apr 17, 2011 11:12:27 GMT 2
Thanks for your response to my reply #118 Charles but I think you’ve misunderstood my query. I’ve read and understand the method of jacking up a wheel to adjust the chain. What I don’t understand is how Marius does it according to the Repair Manual because the front bumper on my car blocks the ‘hole’ where a crank handle or a spanner should go! Marius also indicates that you need an appropriate spanner but I can't see how any type of spanner can access this area on my vehicle. I had a guy looking at my car yesterday who is quite knowledgeable and he also thought it didn't seem possible. NIKKI
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Post by Ari Bezuidenhout on Apr 17, 2011 11:24:07 GMT 2
Hi Nikki
Use a large adjustable wrench from the left side and you can turn the crankshaft a 1/4 turn at a time.
Ari
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Post by ronnie on Apr 17, 2011 11:31:53 GMT 2
Hi Hercules
You can check if the small spring is fitted by removing the cap and then simply push the pin in by the preset distance of 0.2 to 0.5mm and when you let go the pin should move back out under the tension of the small spring. I disagree with you on the "modified" tensioner being OK as it is not. The small spring is there along with the gap to absorb any shock transmitted by the chain to the tensioner shoe. The small spring maintains the preset gap to allow the large pin to move back against the large spring by the preset gap of 0.2 to 0.5mm. Any changes to the design would be detrimental to the tensioning system. All you need to do is study the tensioner drawing to see how it works. The small pin being able to move up inside the large spring renders proper adjustment impossible or at best a hit and miss situation.
Ronnie
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Post by ronnie on Apr 17, 2011 11:39:44 GMT 2
Hi Ari
I think you have made a big mistake, as he is not my friend. I fully intend to check the tensioner shoe as since adjusting the other day I have checked again and the pin is now flush. This is just another reason to have no dealings with him. The motor has done only 7000 odd kms. I will take photos of the tensioner when the weather is dry and will strip shortly to check everything.
Ronnie
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Post by marius on Apr 17, 2011 11:41:21 GMT 2
Hi Nikki You will have to remove the protection and splash plates at the bottom to do it properly. If you are lazy you can also do it from the left side of the car. Just make sure you rotate the crank pully 1-1.5 times in a clockwise direction - the re-tighten the cap on the tensioner. Hope my illustration helps You can actually do it with a crank handle but then you will have to remove bumper and at least lift the radiator out of the way - too much work for me! Marius
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Post by ronnie on Apr 17, 2011 11:44:28 GMT 2
Hi Nikki
The easiest way that I have found is when the plugs are out during the service to jack up one front wheel, put it in fifth gear and use the wheel. Make sure you turn in the right direction.
Ronnie
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Post by marius on Apr 17, 2011 14:51:53 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie
I used to jack the car like that a couple of times but I was once told by a Lada enthusiast/specialist at the time, to try an avoid jacking the car only on the one side. Why I don't know and it can be just an old wife's tale but since then I only use the trolley jack to lift the car evenly?
I do find the method in the manual quick and easy though.
Marius
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Post by ronnie on Apr 17, 2011 15:05:21 GMT 2
Hi Marius
If you jack up both wheels the diff will stop you turning the motor, all you will succeed in doing is turning the other front wheel. This is another of these old wifes tales, as you have stated.
Ronnie
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Post by ronnie on Apr 17, 2011 15:51:39 GMT 2
Hi Nikki
I stripped out the tensioner today which should have been replaced when the engine was overhauled. I suppose I was expecting too much for Lada Centurion to do the job properly. The tensioner is not new but it is serviceable and appears to work properly. When I re tensioned it today I took an accurate measurement of the pin and it sticks out 2mm. As soon as I have time I will strip it and check why it is so little when it should be new. There are no parts nos anywhere on the tensioner.
Ronnie
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Post by Charles on Apr 17, 2011 15:57:28 GMT 2
I refitted everything today and let her idle a while. It is so nice to hear the tappets playing nicely instead of the chain trying to climb out the casing.
Charles
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Post by Charles on Apr 17, 2011 16:10:10 GMT 2
Marius you really like those pink plug wires!! ;D
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vincentc
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
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Post by vincentc on Apr 17, 2011 18:17:14 GMT 2
Hi Danie Bad timing to get sick now - I wish you a speedy recovery I am a bit worried about "your mod" on the tensioner as I believe the small spring plays an important part in giving just enough play not to over tighten the chain. I think "your mod" could in fact contribute to premature wear and tear on the shoe? Maybe you should reconsider and get the original tensioner? Regards Marius Hi Danie Having had a look at the tensioner drawings I feel that the modified tensioner may leave you in the lurch by suddenly failing. Let me explain. The little spring has the sole function of absorbing shocks and vibrations from the chain. In doing this, it prevents additional stresses being placed on the tensioner shoe. These shocks will cause a failure - Of this you can be assured - And the results wull be catastrophic. Rather just replkace the tensioner with an original specification one. Perhaps mike or Ventz can assist with a 2nd hand unit. Sterkte Vincent
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spikes
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Post by spikes on Apr 17, 2011 18:33:31 GMT 2
I refitted everything today and let her idle a while. It is so nice to hear the tappets playing nicely instead of the chain trying to climb out the casing. Charles Hi Charles Good news indeed!
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Post by Charles on Apr 17, 2011 18:56:39 GMT 2
Hi Vincent
Danie doesnt need a tensioner anymore as he has a 1600 twin cam fiat engine that he is fitting.
Charles
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