|
Post by ronnie on Apr 15, 2011 13:58:16 GMT 2
Hi Ari
I think Danie is correct when he said it is the chain which will be needing replaced as well as the tensioner shoe and the chain damper. The only thing in the tensioner that may be suspect is the spring otherwise there is little in the tensioner to wear. the chain will stretch over a period of time. I will keep a close watch over mine as there is so little of the pin sticking out after so few kms.
Ronnie
|
|
|
Post by Charles on Apr 15, 2011 20:38:53 GMT 2
Can you open the tensioner?
Charles
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Apr 15, 2011 20:54:50 GMT 2
Hi Charles
I think you could but wither you could stake the ends to stop the piston coming out I don`t know. Looking at the drawing I would try it as I think it is possible
Ronnie
|
|
Hercules
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Lada - your peace of mind to take on the world's vast landscapes.
Posts: 785
Location: Gauteng
Town: Benoni
Registered: Oct 2, 2009 11:55:41 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by Hercules on Apr 15, 2011 21:05:21 GMT 2
Hi All.
The pin at the cap side is an indicator of wear on the timing drive system. The pin indicates the wear on the tensioner shoe. When the pin is flush with the housing, the tensioner shoe needs to be replaced.
The chance that the chain will stretch is very slim due to that the chain is actually overdesigned for the Lada, as it is a double chain.
The only other vehicle I had with a double chain was a 2.6 Rover. All the rest of the vehicles I had which had timing chains were single chains. Even the Jeep transfer got a single chain driving the 4 wheel drive system.
Regards.
Hercules
|
|
|
Post by Charles on Apr 15, 2011 21:17:25 GMT 2
Hi Hercules
Al nissans that has double chains never gives problems. Even the single chains never stretch. Just the tensioners go. Gets clogged and does not have enough pressure on the chain. Then we replace everything. Both chains, tensioners, shoes, guides and all gears. Its a ten grand job.
I'm going to see if I can repair my tensioner and replace the shoe and see if its quiet then.
Charles
|
|
|
Post by danie on Apr 15, 2011 22:22:39 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie / Ari Today I decided to strip the Tensioner completely at work , just to make sure that my "report" really make any sense. Before I stripped the Pin, I took some pics which will hopefully illustrate the 5mm play on the Pin (Cap end) , while the pin on the opposite side is still under tension - with Zero play This pic shows that the pin simply falls 5mm downwards by itself, and the top end is level with the Tensioner housing: While there is no tension on the "small" pin, the other pin is under spring tension, and sticks out 25mm: When the Tensioner gets hold "upside down" the "small" pin falls 5mm downwards by itself again, while the other pin (under spring tension) still sticks out 25 mm. I then stripped the Tensioner, and all components which have been mentioned at my "report" can be seen here: Please take note that the big Pin has been pushed into the Housing until it sticks out 25mm - the normal position when under spring tension.Just a couple of notes about the components: 1. The "small" Pin which usually can be seen at the Cap end is quite long (can be seen at the bottom of the pic) , and definately does not press against the Spring. As indicated at my original "report" , it presses directly against the big Pin on the opposite side, and not against the Spring. 2. The "small" Pin (bottom of the pic) obviously slides into the Spring, and stcks out on both sides of the spring. 3. The Spring presses against the flat Mounting Plate close to the Cap - and at the other end it presses directly against a "shoulder" - located inside the big pin Tube - also close to the position indicated by the red pen at the pic. 4. The Collets which "grabs" the "small" Pin (to prevent it from sliding backwards ) can be seen at the center of the Cap . Since I have stripped the Tensioner, I realize that even if the spring on my Tensioner has lost some tension already, it definately did not cause the 5mm "play on my "small" pin.Due to the 5mm play on the small pin on my Tensioner, I still think it would be very wise to remove the Cap completely when the Tensioning procedure are undertaken - and to push the pin forward before the Nut gets finally tightened. Danie
|
|
|
Post by Charles on Apr 15, 2011 22:39:08 GMT 2
Thanks Danie. Maybe insted of replacing the whole tensioner one can just replace the spring. Maybe even with a slightly stronger one. Will be much cheaper.
Charles
|
|
|
Post by marius on Apr 16, 2011 8:06:03 GMT 2
Hi Danie There is another spring involved (number 5 in the attachment). I also thought that by just replacing the springs should do - you will just have to make 100% sure that the tension on both springs are strong enough. I would however recommend that you replace the complete tensioner. Regards Marius Attachments:
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Apr 16, 2011 9:35:41 GMT 2
Hi Danie
Sorry but I disagree with you. The small pin has a shoulder at the bottom as per your picture,which you cannot pull up through the large spring to give you 5mm of play unless the large spring has lost all of its tension which I think is unlikely.The small spring maintains the specified gap of between . 02 and . 05 between the small pin and the large pin. The small pin cannot be pulled out wards as the large spring presses on it at the same time via the washer as it presses on the Large pin. You can push it in against the small springs tension by the above amounts. If you can pull the small pin in your tensioner out by 5mm I suggest you have a problem. The only way I can see where you would have 5mm of play is if the heavy spring was not in compression when the tensioner was assembled. If what you say were to be correct you would need to remove the cap completely every time to make sure the pin was pushed home. This is not the way the tensioner is designed. You DO NOT need to remove the cap to adjust the chain. The collets also seem to release completely when you loosen the cap so no small tap with a hammer would be needed.
Ronnie
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Apr 16, 2011 9:40:25 GMT 2
Hi Charles and Marius
I think you are correct that new springs would be a good idea providing they were the same tension as the original. If they were to be stronger you may have increased wear on the tensioner shoe.
Ronnie
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Apr 16, 2011 9:46:13 GMT 2
Hi Marius
If you look at the items coloured yellow you will see that spring no 8 presses on the 2 "pins" with the assistance of washer 7. You cannot pull the small pin back against the large spring when it is assembled.
Ronnie
|
|
|
Post by Charles on Apr 16, 2011 12:36:52 GMT 2
Hi all
Pullet the tappet cover off this morning to lock the shoe so I can remove the tensioner. The tip of my tensioner sticks out by onlt 1cm. The shoe and guide looks in good condition. Will have a better look at them with a torch some time. Weather isnt playing alon as it is pissing down outside. Then tensioner is taking a long bath in some petrol now and will go in some engine cleaner (we call it mampoer seeing as it is strong enough to eat paint off a car if not diluted) overnight and hopefullt I will be able to get it striped tomorrow. Ronnie it does sound like the collets are loose and holding the cap. Even outside I try and take the cap off it turns to what looks like almost the end of the threads then just goes KLAP ( hard click sound). Even if it is loose the pin is only out by about 1cm and also doesnt want to push in.
I hope I can repair it then it will be a cheap fix. Now i know why the chain was noisy even after I pushed the shoe forward when doing the adjustment. The tensioner wasnt even close to the shoe. I was damm lucky that the chain didnt just seeing as I drove her damm hard a couple of times. I mean pulling away at high revs on the gravel spinning all 4 wheels and driving it like a rally car. I get a feeling that is how my Niva will always get drivin seeing as it is feels fantastic driving it like that.
A Niva really like to slide around corners throwing stones everywhere. Also very entertaining for the people standing next to the road.
Charles
|
|
Hercules
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Lada - your peace of mind to take on the world's vast landscapes.
Posts: 785
Location: Gauteng
Town: Benoni
Registered: Oct 2, 2009 11:55:41 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by Hercules on Apr 16, 2011 12:45:09 GMT 2
Hi Danie.
I think your small pin is been modified because it do not have the step above the shoulder. Thurther I do not see a retaining washer in your photos, maybe this is the reason you have a 5mm play on the pin. The retaining washer is there for the spring to keep the pin secure against the tensioner pin. Your small pin is sliding in side the spring.
The new tensioner got basicly no movement on the indicator pin.
Fit a retaining washer and see if you still got movement on the small pin.
Regards.
Hercules
|
|
Hercules
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Lada - your peace of mind to take on the world's vast landscapes.
Posts: 785
Location: Gauteng
Town: Benoni
Registered: Oct 2, 2009 11:55:41 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by Hercules on Apr 16, 2011 12:55:39 GMT 2
Hi Charles.
It is posible the the indicator pin is mushroomed and stucked inside the collet, or the cap were overtightened and the collet damaged and forced into the pin.
I will rather suggest to replace the tensioner with a new unit from Ventz. They are really cheap and then you know it is right.
Regards.
Hercules
PS. Also make sure you got the correct tensioner shoe fitted as there is some "agents" selling 1600 spares for 1700.
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Apr 16, 2011 14:05:01 GMT 2
Hi Hercules
The max distance you should be able to move the small pin is 0.2 to 0.5 mm. Mine is inside these measurements. If the small spring is doing it`s job you can only push the pin in, not pull it out at all. It is not easy to see Danie`s one clearly looking at the photo, but it is not right. I will need to check the tensioner shoe on mine as I think from memory it was Lada Centurion who was using 1600 instead of 1700 tensioner shoes. This may be why the pin on mine sticks out so little.
Ronnie
|
|
|
Post by Charles on Apr 16, 2011 14:17:00 GMT 2
Someone striped my tensioner and reassembled it in the wring order. They fitted the small washer above the spring and the pin pushed onto the spring. That is why the cap didn't want to come off. The small pin was stuck in the collets and preventing the cam from comminbg off. It would move as far as the pin would go and then the tension of the spring would just pull it back. Soaking everything in engine cleaner again. Will then assemble it with lots of copper slip and see if its working. The spring is still very strong. Everything was seized. Why does all Nivas been owned or worked on by idiots previously???
Charles
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Apr 16, 2011 14:27:14 GMT 2
Hi Charles
Let us know what play is where when you have reassembled the tensioner. You may be lucky and find everything is as it should be. The tensioner is actually very simple, and should be pretty fool proof.
Ronnie
|
|
|
Post by Charles on Apr 16, 2011 14:39:49 GMT 2
Wil do Ronnie. The whole Niva is fool proof. That just goes to show us how many fools there are that think they can work on a Niva.
Charles
|
|
spikes
Moderator
Posts: 3,689
Location: Mpumalanga
Town: Nelspruit
Registered: Apr 19, 2010 19:39:51 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by spikes on Apr 16, 2011 16:03:42 GMT 2
Hi Charles, Oil enters the bottom part of the tensioner. I am not to sure if the CopaSlip and oil will be a good idea. I rather lubricate the whole during assembley with engine oil. Perhaps Vincent can give some direction here? Regards Spikes
|
|
|
Post by Charles on Apr 16, 2011 16:12:25 GMT 2
Hi Spikes
Striped it again and assemvbled it and left it in some oil.n
Charles
|
|
|
Post by Charles on Apr 16, 2011 16:14:51 GMT 2
I just wonder why it seized.
Charles
|
|
|
Post by Charles on Apr 16, 2011 16:41:36 GMT 2
She is quiet! Now I know what she must sound like. The pin sticks out 3mm. All is good. There is almost no movement on the small pin. About 0,1mm.
Charles
|
|
spikes
Moderator
Posts: 3,689
Location: Mpumalanga
Town: Nelspruit
Registered: Apr 19, 2010 19:39:51 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by spikes on Apr 16, 2011 17:20:24 GMT 2
Hi Charles Are the holes near the bottom open? As I understand the drawings in the spares manual, the bottom pin should not have much play, it is kept under tension by the small spring in the plunger body. regards Spikes
|
|
vincentc
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 1,130
Registered: Mar 16, 2011 17:59:16 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by vincentc on Apr 16, 2011 17:53:56 GMT 2
Hi Charles, Oil enters the bottom part of the tensioner. I am not to sure if the CopaSlip and oil will be a good idea. I rather lubricate the whole during assembley with engine oil. Perhaps Vincent can give some direction here? Regards Spikes Engine oil would be the best solution. :-)
|
|
vincentc
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 1,130
Registered: Mar 16, 2011 17:59:16 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by vincentc on Apr 16, 2011 17:55:07 GMT 2
lol just read the post following the quoted post.
|
|
|
Post by Charles on Apr 16, 2011 17:56:36 GMT 2
Yes they are. I am so glad everything is fine now. My chain was never under any tension.
If its now raining tomorrow I want to put everything back and let her idle for I while and just enjoy the sound of a quiet engine.
Charles
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Apr 16, 2011 17:59:27 GMT 2
Hi Charles and Spikes The small pin should have between 0.2 and 0,5 mm of play. The play is in and nothing if you try to pull it out. The small spring is pushing the small pin against the large spring. Charles yours sounds fine now, you are lucky Ronnie
|
|
spikes
Moderator
Posts: 3,689
Location: Mpumalanga
Town: Nelspruit
Registered: Apr 19, 2010 19:39:51 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by spikes on Apr 16, 2011 18:17:06 GMT 2
Hi Charles and Spikes The small pin should have between 0.2 and 0,5 mm of play. The play is in and nothing if you try to pull it out. The small spring is pushing the small pin against the large spring. Charles yours sounds fine now, you are lucky Ronnie Hi all, This agrees with my interpretation of the tensioner's exploded drawing. Bottom pin can only move in Thanks Vincent for confirming the oil for the tensioner assembly regards Spikes
|
|
|
Post by marje46nuns on Apr 16, 2011 19:33:29 GMT 2
Glad to see that everything worked out alright in the end Charles. Marius - earlier on under this thread you indicated that you adjust the chain as per the Repair Manual. You also mentioned the need for an 'appropriate spanner' to turn the crankshaft pulley clockwise. On my car the front bumper is in front of the 'hole' so I'm very puzzled as to how you manage to do this. Please let me know what kind of an 'appropriate spanner' you are referring to . Thanks a stack. NIKKI
|
|
|
Post by Charles on Apr 16, 2011 19:42:07 GMT 2
Nikki ther crankshaft pully is a 36mm. The hole in the bumper is for the crank handle. To turn the engine, remove the spark plugs, jack up the right front wheel put in 5th gear and turn the wheel. Make sure the tc is not in neutral and diff lock is off.
Charles
|
|