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Post by jaco1978 on Apr 10, 2011 21:07:01 GMT 2
Here is my sub 5 min method:
Grab trolly jack and lift the right front wheel. Use 13 socket (in my case a 14) and loosen the tensioner cap (tap with hammer once for luck). Turn the engine FORWARD twice with the right front wheel. Before tightening the cap again tap it twice with hammer (for love). Then tighten the cap firmly. Drop the trolly jack. Start engine and ;D.
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Post by ronnie on Apr 10, 2011 21:33:59 GMT 2
Hi Danie
I have only just noticed your post re the 2mm. Like you I thought this was very little. Howerver we know who rebuilt the motor so nothing surprises me.
Ronnie
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Post by marius on Apr 10, 2011 22:01:14 GMT 2
The Repair Manual's method >> "Chain tension adjustment Loosen nut 1 (Fig.2-56) of the tensioner. This releases rod 3 and the chain is tightened by means of shoe 7 (Fig.2-55) which is loaded by spring 7 (Fig.2-56). Turn the crankshaft 1-1.5 turns progressively. By doing that, the tensioner spring, operating the shoe, automatically adjusts the chain tension. Tighten tensioner nut 1, this results in rod 3 clamped by collets 8; during engine operation plunger 6 is effected only by spring 4. The spring releases the plunger from rod 3 head, so that the clearance between them is filled with oil that acts as a damper when the chain strikes." Quick and easy Marius PS - you need an appropriate spanner to turn the crankshaft puly clockwise.
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Post by danie on Apr 11, 2011 6:46:39 GMT 2
Hi Nikki
I found your question regarding skimming a cylinder head under " 20 most recent posts", but I cannot find your post here.
Anyway - a Cylinder Head usually get skimmed very slightly, because skimming do cause an increase in combustion chamber compression, and could cause detonation if the compression gets too high.
Depending on the extend to which your Cylinder Head have been skimmed, the timing marks should not be "a long way past" anyway.
Just another question - Who has done the Head Gasket installation, and how many kms ago has this been done ?
If the Tensioner Shoe is worn - surely the guy who did the Gasket installation should have noticed the worn tensioner. ? (If it was warn obviously)
Danie
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Post by marje46nuns on Apr 11, 2011 23:03:02 GMT 2
Thanks Danie and Charles for getting back to me. Danie - I haven’t posted anything about the cylinder head problem – just a couple of questions under my reply no. 58 under this thread to try to avoid another one. ;D The cylinder head problem was sorted out locally over 8000 kms and a few years ago. At that time the only chains, shoes and slippers I was aware of were the ones I wore (and ignorance was bliss ;D) but I presume there was no problem with the chain then as nothing was mentioned. Unfortunately, my ignorance has proved to be quite costly and hence the various questions to try to understand what's going on and any potential problems. I think I understand all that’s been said so far – all I really need clarity on for now is to what extent, if any, the skimming of the cylinder head could have affected the bit that sticks out. Thanks a stack NIKKI
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Post by danie on Apr 12, 2011 6:07:04 GMT 2
Hi Nikki / / Hercules Nikki, I was actually referring to your post - the second last one at page 5. At the time of my post I was in quite a hurry on my way to work, and was obviously scrolling too fast through the posts. So I didn't see your comments on page 5 when I was looking for it. I also did not mean that you are having Head problems at the moment - I was just trying to explain that Cylinder Heads usually get skimmed very slightly (as little as possible), and that skimming should not make a huge difference when the timing marks get lined up. Anyway - since I now realize how the Tensioner work, I think there is a much easier way to determine whether your Timing Chain has jumped some teeth : 1. Turn the engine clockwise - as per the "Shoe Tensioner Adjusting Method. 2. Remove the Tensioner Cap completely by undoing the nut. 3. Have a close look at the position of the pin at the center of the Tensioner Housing: - If the pin does not stick out at all, there is a definate problem - and it would be wise not to start the engine. 4. Try to determine by hand (or long nose pliers) whether it is possible to move the pin backward and forwards . - If there is any movement on the pin, and it moves backwards and forwards fairly easy, it means that your Tensioner Spring is not under any tension at all - and that the chain has probably jumped some teeth. On my Tensioner there is about 5mm "play" when the pin gets pushed backwards and forwards - when the Tensioner spring is not under tension: In your case - while the tensioner is still a bit oily and located in position, the pin will be slightly sticky, due to the oil. Hercules, if your new Tensioner has not been installed yet - could you please have a look whether you also have a slight "play" on the outer pin when you do move it backwards and forwards ? This could be very important to determine whether the spring on my Tensioner has loose tension or not. Danie
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Post by marius on Apr 12, 2011 7:57:58 GMT 2
There are many "duplicate" parts of the Camshaft drive (A140) in the manual. For the 1700 do you get the parts with the 2101 prefix or the parts with the 21213 prefix as far as the "duplicates" goes?
Regards Marius
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Post by Charles on Apr 12, 2011 10:07:19 GMT 2
Am I correct in saying that if I turn my engine to tdc I can remove the tensioner without having to worry about the chain jumping teeth?
Charles
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Post by ronnie on Apr 12, 2011 14:44:41 GMT 2
Hi Charles
You should turn the motor to line up the marks, but the chain can jump no matter in what position the motor is sitting.
Ronnie
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Post by marje46nuns on Apr 12, 2011 18:13:34 GMT 2
Thanks for all the info Danie - I'll probably ask some questions later.
In the meantime, and when you have a minute, could you please check out the part number that should be stamped on your tensioner and let us know what it is.
This is a 'duplicate' part as Marius has pointed out, which doesn't appear to be interchangeable and it's not clear which one is correct. I'm in the process of finalizing my order and will mention it when I order but I think yours should be the right one for my car as well.
I think the other 'duplicates' are okay because they are either interchangeable or one of them has an (01) extension which indicates which model it belongs to.
Regards
NIKKI
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Post by Charles on Apr 12, 2011 18:59:07 GMT 2
Nikki your one is the one on Pg A141 in the spares catalog.
Charles
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Post by danie on Apr 12, 2011 20:27:13 GMT 2
Hi Charles / Nikki
Charles, just make 100% sure that the engine does not turn in any direction - anti clockwise and clockwise, when you have removed the Tensioner. Then there should be no reason why the chain will jump any teeth.
Nikki , the Tensioner housing is a bit rusted, and I cannot see any part no at the moment. Tomorrow I will use a wire brush to remove the rust to make 100% sure.
Unfortunately my time is a bit limited at the moment, so I will try to send the pics and more comments tomorrow.
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Post by marje46nuns on Apr 12, 2011 23:14:53 GMT 2
Danie - there's no need to go to all that trouble to try to find the part number I'll email Valeriy to find out.
I'm not ready with any more questions yet but I am thinking about them. ;D
Thanks for all your help.
Charles - I think the tensioner you are referring to on page A141 is for the Multi Point Fuel Injection but mine is the TBI.
NIKKI
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Post by Charles on Apr 12, 2011 23:27:15 GMT 2
Ok Nikki. So you also have the manual one?
Charles
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Post by danie on Apr 13, 2011 6:36:23 GMT 2
Hi Nikki
I gave Hercules a call yesterday evening, and we compared the new Tensioner which Hercules has bought from Ventz, with the one at the pic above.
Both Tensioners seem to be exactly the same . The new one which Hercules bought from Ventz does not have an engraved or stamped part no., and I am quite convinced that mine does not have a stamped part no either.
The only difference between the two Tensioners is the "play" at the pins at the Cap end.
- The "play" at Hercules' new Tensioner pin is only about 1 mm.
- The "play" at my Tensioner's pin is about 5 mm.
I think the spring on my Tensioner's pin has lost some tension by time, probably due to engine heat as well - and therefore caused the bigger play at the pin.
So maybe the fact that the Tensioner spring seem to loose tension by time, is another very good reason to replace Tensioners.
Danie P.S. Hercules - When you do install the new Tensioner, it will be very helpful if you could compare the tension on both springs, and let us know about the outcome.
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Post by danie on Apr 13, 2011 23:03:56 GMT 2
Just a few comments about the Timing Chain Tensioner components (Cap, two separate pins , housing, and spring) , and how I think it works. Anyone who might have a different opinion, please feel free to correct me.
The Tensioner has two separate Pins, with Tensioner Spring in between.
Tensioner Spring
-The Tensioner Spring only "activates" the pin which gets in contact with the Timing Shoe - by "pushing" the Shoe towards the Chain permanently .
- The Spring does not "bottom" against the pin on the Cap side, so it does not press this pin (Cap side) in the opposite direction.
- The spring seems loose some tension by time - like all springs do.( I.e. sagging coil springs at the front and rear Suspension.)
Hopefully more owners will compare Tensioner spring tensions whenever they do replace their Tensioners - and report to the Forum.
- Once the Spring starts losing tension, the tension against the Timing Chain will be incorrect, and the Spring will start "jumping". The Chain will then become noisy, and the Tensioner needs to be replaced . The noise will not disappear by following the normal re tensioning procedure only.
Pin One - Cap side:
- This Pin does not push the pin on the opposite side (Chain side) towards the Chain, when the Cap and Cap Nut gets tightened.
- This Pin gets "grabbed" by the Collets which are located inside the Cap, once the Collets gets in touch with the tapered inside of the Tensioner Housing.
- The main function of this pin is to prevent the Pin on the opposite side to be forced backwards - i.e. should the engine turn anti clockwise for some or other reason.
- During the normal Timing Chain tensioning procedure every 10 000 kms, I believe the Cap should be removed completely, and this pin should be forced forward (towards the Chain) as hard as possible - to ensure that this pin makes direct contact with the pin on the opposite side. (on my Tensioner I discovered a "play" of 5mm between the two pins - should the Cap not be in direct contact with the pin on the opposite side ( i.e 5mm gap) when the Cap was tightened, it means that the tension on the chain would still not be correct , because the spring will start "jumping" - see comment under "Pin Two", below).
- When there is no tension at all on the Tensioner Spring - like when the Tensioner Shoe or Chain is broken, there will be a slight "play on this pin - if moved forwards and backwards by hand (on a new Tensioner the play appears to be 1 mm - might be more on an old Tensioner)
-When all components are new and in 100 % condition (Timing Shoe, Chain, and Gears , this pin should stick out at least 5mm (the thickness of the Timing Shoe Pad) (I will verify the thickness of the Pad tomorrow)
- As the Timing Shoe, Timing Chain, and Gears wear down, this Pin will stick out less than 5mm.
- When only 2mm of this pin sticks out, the timing Chain needs to be replaced, and all relevant components need serious attention.
Pin Two (Chain Side)
-The Tensioner Spring "push" this Pin against the Tensioner Shoe permanently - and as the Shoe, Chain and Gears gets worn, the pin keeps on moving towards the Shoe.
- As mentioned above, "Pin One" does not "follow" this pin while it keeps on moving forward.
- As the Shoe (and other relevant components) wear down, a gap between the two Pins will be created - and as the gap gets bigger, this pin will be forced backwards and forwards by the chain / Tensioner Spring when the engine is running.
- As this Pin is moving forward, the Pin on the opposite side does not "support" it any longer, and the Tensioner Spring starts "jumping" backwards and forwards.
Then the Chain becomes noisy, and the Tensioner needs to be re adjusted as per the normal tensioning procedure.
Cap / Nut combination
-The thread on the Cap as well as the Housing needs to be in good condition at all times. If the thread is stripped , the Collets will not have a proper grip on the Pin (Cap side), and the Pin on the Chain side will be forced backwards by the Chain when the car is driven.
Then the tension on the Chain will be incorrect, and the Chain could easily jump some teeth.
Pics will hopefully be forwarded later - due to poor quality / camera problem.
Danie
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Post by marje46nuns on Apr 13, 2011 23:19:20 GMT 2
Danie - thanks for phoning Hercules and comparing notes on the tensioner - I really appreciate it.
I think it's all pretty clear but I'll probably need to ask just a few more things to make sure. ;D
Thanks again
NIKKI
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Post by Charles on Apr 13, 2011 23:25:43 GMT 2
Danie I think you are corect. When I had my tappet cover off I put a lever behind the shoe and forced it forward, I then undid the tensioner and you could see it take up the play. Tightend the cap and it looked perfect. Started it and it was quiet. Left it idling for 5 min and it was noisy as hellk again. So I think the rear pin isn't pushing against the front pin. Hopefully I will be able to remove the tensioner this weekend to inspect it. Thanks for all the info on this topic.
Charles.
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Post by marje46nuns on Apr 13, 2011 23:43:04 GMT 2
Danie - apologies - I hadn't seen your most recent post when I said thanks for phoning Hercules.
With my limited knowledge it will take a while for me to fully digest all the information but it looks very interesting and everyone should find it very useful.
Thank you again!
NIKKI
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Post by marius on Apr 14, 2011 7:54:36 GMT 2
Thanks Danie for this very valuable info. Regards Marius
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Post by Ari Bezuidenhout on Apr 14, 2011 8:27:28 GMT 2
""- When only 2mm of this pin sticks out, the timing Chain needs to be replaced, and all relevant components need serious attention. ""
Hi Danie
I think you might have made an error here.
Ari
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Post by ronnie on Apr 14, 2011 10:25:03 GMT 2
Hi Ari My timing chain and parts are new and only 2 mm sticks out? Mind you I must take into account who rebuilt the motor Ronnie PS I seem to remember there was comments of Lada Centurion using 1600 parts instead of 1700 ?
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Post by ronnie on Apr 14, 2011 11:06:29 GMT 2
Hi Danie
I do not agree with you on the construction of the PIN(s). The large spring presses against both the pin locked by the collets and the large piston. The small spring is only there to maintain a clearance of between 0.2 and 0.5 mm between the small pin and the large pin. (I am using the word pin only to distinguish between the 2 moving parts). If I understand the workings correctly there should always be a clearance between the pins as mentioned above. In Charles`s case the noise of the chain cannot get worse some time after adjusting it unless something moves The only thing that I can see to do that would be the collets not holding the pin. Please all to have a look at the working of the tensioner and lets have your comments.
Ronnie
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Post by marius on Apr 14, 2011 12:03:51 GMT 2
I think Ronnie is correct but nevertheless it is vital that one keeps a very close eye on the tensioner and if it is functioning properly when doing the regular and critical adjustment.
Danie's suggestion that one should get a complete set of replacement spares should also be a priority.
Marius
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Post by ronnie on Apr 14, 2011 12:38:34 GMT 2
Hi Danie
I have been looking at the tensioner again and I can see no reason to "push as hard as possible on the pin when adjusting the tension. As soon as you let go to replace the cap the only thing now exerting any pressure on the shoe is the spring of the tensioner, which would be the same as if you did not touch the pin. The 0.2 to. 05 gap between the "2 pins" will be there so that there is not excess pressure on the tensioner shoe that would then cause excessive wear.
Ronnie
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Post by ronnie on Apr 14, 2011 18:40:51 GMT 2
Hi Danie
One thing is for sure as this very insignificant little adjuster can cause costly repairs I fully agree that caution should taken when adjusting it and if you have any doubts the complete adjuster and timing shoe etc should be throughly checked.
Ronnie
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Post by danie on Apr 15, 2011 0:49:35 GMT 2
Hi Danie I do not agree with you on the construction of the PIN(s). The large spring presses against both the pin locked by the collets and the large piston. Ronnie Hi Ronnie / Ari Ronnie, I do not agree with you on this one ! If the large spring do presses against the pin on the Cap side - how would you explain the fact that there is a 5 mm play on my pin on the Cap side , while there is zero play on the big pin on the opposite side ? "Zero play" play on the big pin obviously means the pin is under continuous tension (caused by the spring )at the moment already. So why do you think there would be no need to push the pin forward , (during the normal) if the big pin under tension already has to "travel" 5mm backwards, to activate the pin on the Cap side - should it not be pushed forward ?? I hope to take some pics with a high resolution camera at work today, and will post some pics during this weekend. Also - if the pin only sticks out 2 mm on your tensioner, you also have a problem . How do you know that all related components are new on your Lada ? Did Jan tell you that ??Unfortunately I did not make it clear enough at my previous post: When the large pin move back any given distance - i.e 5mm , the pin on the Cap side will move back exactly the same distance (i.e. 5mm) only if the pin (Cap side) has been pushed forward.If the small pin has not been pushed forward, the big pin (under tension already) will have to "travel" an additional 5mm before it activates the small pin. Ari, why do you think I have made a mistake ? Could you please explain ? Danie
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Post by ronnie on Apr 15, 2011 9:03:44 GMT 2
Hi Danie and Ari
The 2 "Pins are locked together with a 0.2 to 0.5 gap by the large spring. If yours comes out by 5mm there is something wrong. If you look at a drawing of the adjuster you will see there is a step on both "pins" and the spring sits on both. As long as the collets are loose you will gain NOTHING by removing the cap as the set up allows you to alter NOTHING. The adjustment is an automatic function which takes place when the cap is loose and the engine is turned through 2 turns, (or 3 for that matter).
Ronnie
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Post by Ari Bezuidenhout on Apr 15, 2011 9:38:45 GMT 2
""Ari, why do you think I have made a mistake ?
Could you please explain ?""
Hi Danie
You said when the pin sticks out too little the CHAIN needs to be replaced but I think you mean the TENSIONER needs to be replaced not the CHAIN.
Ari
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Post by ronnie on Apr 15, 2011 9:51:02 GMT 2
Hi Danie I forgot to say Jan did not tell me he had replaced the tensioner or the chain, but only an idiot would overhaul a motor without replacing things like the tensioner and chain etc. This also applies to items like oil pump. From Lada Centurion I should expect the unexpected Ronnie
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