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Post by danie on Jul 13, 2012 19:58:58 GMT 2
Just a few notes about my own view about the need for a Locsa Management structure:
Firsly, we are all human and we all do make mistakes - I certainly have made many at this very forum. Nobody in life (including myself) is perfect - that includes any given Moderator , Chairperson, etc. etc. Therefore I firmly believe in "checks and balances".
I am not blowing my whistle now, but I have served at quite a few formal Structures in society - and believe me, I have seen some failures out there !
I do know that I often gets regarded as a "dictator" myself - but anyone who do believe that, is making the biggest mistake of his / her life . Fact is, I firmly believe in hard work, as well as "consensus / majority rule" within the Management Structure of any given organization.
On a positive note:
Jan, to my mind you have perfectly mastered the "art" of running a Website with great success. Although you are the "Boss", you clearly have a Management Structure in place ! - and that's exactly what we need ! To my experience, the more people are drawn into any Structure, the better the chance of success !
On a negative note:
Should no Locsa Management Structure be elected now, this will mean that the Locsa era will finally came to an end soon. This will also mean that some members out there who might have the skills, and might be willing to be "drawn into" the Locsa structure, might never have the opportunity of sharing their skills here.
Can we really afford that ?
Danie
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Post by spikes on Jul 13, 2012 20:29:43 GMT 2
Hi all
To the best of my knowledge it has never been the intention to run LOCSA without some form of structure to manage its affairs.
It is only the form of the structure that is being tested with the present poll.
I fully agree with Danie that LOCSA without any form of guidance and means to create order, is very likely to fall flat in short order.
I, personally like the way the Belgian NIVA site is run. the question would then be "can that be accommodated on the ProBoards " host.
cheers all
Spikes
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Post by ronnie on Jul 13, 2012 22:14:18 GMT 2
Hi Spikes
When I joined LOCSA there was no Formal structure only Kobus and Danie as Moderators. It was Danie who wanted and set up the poll which called for a formal structure. At no time prior to that was a Formal structure ever mentioned so where the "intention" came from I do not know. The one thing which is very relevant is an events organizer, though even there anyone wanting to organize an outing or get together should be free to do so without being "appointed"
Ronnie
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Post by ladanivabelgium on Jul 14, 2012 7:57:41 GMT 2
i thought the question was if LOCSA needs a formal structure and registered by your government. ofcourse every club/organisation needs some kind of structure. I agree with some others that LOCSA will be DEAD within a short time if there is no message board. So you can put it this way: the message board is LOCSA and LOCSA is the message board. I am convinced that the forum (not the club itself) of 'De Belgische Nivavrienden' can exist without any chairmen or other members of the board. It justs needs an administrator and some moderators. But i also believe that the ammount of club members will decrease dramatically without our forum. It's only in 'real life' that a club needs a chairman and members of the board, registered or not registered
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Post by ronnie on Jul 14, 2012 8:25:17 GMT 2
Hi Jan
I agree with you this Forum does not need anything other than moderators and of course Kobus as Administrator. Locsa will continue to flourish as long as we have so many loyal Niva owners who are dedicated to keeping them running. Statements that the Forum will cease to exist is not doing any good and should cease.
Ronnie
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Post by danie on Jul 14, 2012 8:40:08 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie
The " intention" was coming from myself - if you do read my post at the top of this page again, you will hopefully understand that the "intention" was good.
So there is no way in life that I will apologize about my "intention".
The more I read some posts at this Forum, the more I understand that things can go very wrong at this forum . I prefer not to raise any detail, for obvious reasons.
I do not have intention of getting drawn into any form of argument here - so this has been my last comments regarding this issue.
Danie
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Post by ladanivabelgium on Jul 14, 2012 8:47:27 GMT 2
Hi Jan I agree with you this Forum does not need anything other than moderators and of course Kobus as Administrator. Locsa will continue to flourish as long as we have so many loyal Niva owners who are dedicated to keeping them running. Statements that the Forum will cease to exist is not doing any good and should cease.
Ronnie i'm sure it will never come to that, and if it does for some unclear reason, i'm sure there will be a solutian for that. The people who are running this board now are doing a great job. They deserve thanks from all of us. However, I have a proposal: there should be a section for matters like this, not for the whole world to see. On our belgian forum we have such sections: for mod's, for the event team, for paying members etc. Maybe it's not possible with your host and the forum software, but this would be a good addition to the forum. Maybe Kobus could look into that?
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Post by marius on Jul 14, 2012 10:06:11 GMT 2
Thanks again for the valuable input Jan. Personally I prefer an open and democratic approach to these matters and discussions in an attempt to resolve possible issues. However I clearly understand your approach as well as the reasons why you prefer to do it your way.
Marius
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Post by marius on Jul 14, 2012 10:22:24 GMT 2
Hi Danie and all
UNLESS someone pulls the plug on this forum (which has happened before) there is no way that LOCSA will suddenly cease to exist just because we don't have a Formal Management structure in place.
The truth of the matter is that Management has had very little influence (if any) over the day to day affairs of the Forum. The most important players in LOCSA are the Active Members on this Forum and the people who regulate their conduct - the Moderators. Without these players LOCSA WILL vanish.
I think we should refrain from doomsday tactics to try and push our agendas here. We have put this issue to the vote and we should respect the final outcome.
Even if the final outcome is NO - we will still have some formal structure with Moderators and Events Organisers.
Marius
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Post by ronnie on Jul 14, 2012 11:13:25 GMT 2
Hi Jan
That is exactly what I mean. This type of statement should not be broadcast. Marius in his last post has summed it up very nicely
Ronnie
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Post by danie on Jul 14, 2012 13:51:09 GMT 2
Hi Danie and all UNLESS someone pulls the plug on this forum (which has happened before) there is no way that LOCSA will suddenly cease to exist just because we don't have a Formal Management structure in place. Marius Hi Marius I now realize for the first time that most members (included some of the Current Locsa Management Structure at least) never realized that Locsa (Lada Owners, CLUB of South Africa), is a CLUB. The club (Locsa) and the Forum, are two complete different enities. Again, please take note - the name "Locsa" clearly indicates that it's members are club members ! I now also understand why the current Locsa Structure never bothered to get a constitution in place - the selected Management structure probably never realized that they have been selected to manage a club. ??That's my point - Locsa does have a formal structure in place - with you as selected Chairperson , and will disappear as soon as a new Management structure does not get selected. Ronnie, I have never mentioned anything about a possibility that the Forum itself will cease to exist - . I guess somebody else has mentioned something in this regard . Danie
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Post by spikes on Jul 14, 2012 14:26:32 GMT 2
Hi Danie Your statement that we(as members, moderators and Present Management Structure) are unaware that the Club and forum are two separate entities is incorrect: See your post of 25 Aug 2010, below where you clearly pointed out 2 entities: ""Congratulations to each member of the new LOCSA Management Structure ! The new structure is as follows: Chairperson : Marius Vice Chairperson : Ronnie Treasurer : Hercules Events Organizers : Ari and Darryn I will immediately inform Kobus about the new Management Structure. To each member the new Management Structure - thanks for being prepared to be involved in taking LOCSA forward ! I have no doubt that this club / website is in good hands, and that each one of you are more than capable of serving the Lada community of South Africa !Marius, as Chairperson - please feel free to air your views regarding the road ahead - I am sure that everyone is more than ready to do whatever it takes to ensure a bright future for this Club ! Regards Danie P.S. This Thread will not be opened for discussion - Please use the "Locsa Management Structure" thread for further discussion locsa.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=announce&action=display&thread=186"" Read more: locsa.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=announce&action=display&thread=247#ixzz20bBe9s4VSpikes
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Post by marius on Jul 14, 2012 15:20:03 GMT 2
Danie you are quite correct - due to the demographics involved it would be rather difficult to run LOCSA as a fully fledged Club - unlike Belgium which is not much larger than Gauteng.
I can't imagine that if we had an emergency - like the time when the forum was deliberately undermined - that I would have had a great response for an emergency meeting in Johannesburg. This particular matter was resolved with the help of "ordinary" members.
I realize that the Management Structure that you've put in place is a rather important matter for you - however you yourself has failed to consult with ANY of the Management Team on the VERY important matter of obtaining spares through Autozone. Your discussions with Autozone was drawn out over several months, and during that period none of us (Management) was ever consulted. You did however use this forum as a platform of your progress, but Management was never consulted on any of this.
You have threatened on this forum and now you have insulted. I suggest that you follow and respect the wishes of others.
Marius
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Post by ladanivabelgium on Jul 14, 2012 16:19:13 GMT 2
Howhowhowhooow! Let the one without mistakes throw the first stone! We all make mistakes and we all say things that are misunderstood or not ment as they read. I'm sure Danie has the best of intentions. After all he's one of the elders ;D and he's browsing this forum for many years. Let's listen to each other and try to understand why others have an other opinion. (I don't, but then again: i dont' have to, because i know best ;D ) I, for one, don't believe in elections for this matter. I feel that important possitions should be given to the people who have proven that they are worth it. It's not my intention to impose (correct word?) the Belgian system, but it works well for us. Since i don't believe in elections (dictator, remember? ;D) i suggest that Kobus, Marius, Ronnie, Danie (again: the elders ;D), Charles and the mods (sorry if i'm forgetting some one) point out the people who could fit these positions. I also suggest that the people who have extended permissions on the forum at this moment keep these permissions to keep an eye on things. just for the record: i don't apply for any position, i'm way to lazy for that
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Post by danie on Jul 14, 2012 17:07:22 GMT 2
Hi Danie Your statement that we(as members, moderators and Present Management Structure) are unaware that the Club and forum are two separate entities is incorrect: See your post of 25 Aug 2010, below where you clearly pointed out 2 entities: ""Congratulations to each member of the new LOCSA Management Structure ! The new structure is as follows: Chairperson : Marius Vice Chairperson : Ronnie Treasurer : Hercules Events Organizers : Ari and Darryn I will immediately inform Kobus about the new Management Structure. To each member the new Management Structure - thanks for being prepared to be involved in taking LOCSA forward ! I have no doubt that this club / website is in good hands, and that each one of you are more than capable of serving the Lada community of South Africa !Marius, as Chairperson - please feel free to air your views regarding the road ahead - I am sure that everyone is more than ready to do whatever it takes to ensure a bright future for this Club ! Regards Danie P.S. This Thread will not be opened for discussion - Please use the "Locsa Management Structure" thread for further discussion locsa.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=announce&action=display&thread=186""Read more: locsa.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=announce&action=display&thread=247#ixzz20bBe9s4VSpikes Hi Spikes Sorry to inform you, you did not understand my (quoted) statement correctly. If you do have another good look at the quoted statement, you will see that I have stated: "I have no doubt that this club / website is in good hands..." Many thanks Marius / Jan , for realising what I am "talking" about - I am very worried that many members do not seem to realize what is happening here. To my mind there is no point in pointing fingers to each other here - I am more than convinced that quite a number of statements here are simply based on misunderstanding each other - right from the start since the LOCSA "revival ".Danie
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Post by ronnie on Jul 14, 2012 18:57:31 GMT 2
Hi Danie
You are now running around in circles trying to prove everyone is wrong and you are right. I for one am tired of it and it should end now. There is a poll. simply vote the way you see it and we will all accept the results.
Ronnie
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Post by spikes on Jul 14, 2012 18:58:17 GMT 2
Hi Danie
Point taken
I await the outcome of the Poll
Spikes
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Post by ladanivabelgium on Jul 14, 2012 19:35:23 GMT 2
i voted
maybe the word 'formal' should not be in the poll question
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Post by marius on Jul 14, 2012 19:40:26 GMT 2
I trust that sanity will prevail.
Marius
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Post by ladanivabelgium on Jul 14, 2012 19:46:55 GMT 2
why i don't believe in an election for LOCSA: there are close to 400 LOCSA members. How many of those 400 log in on regular bases? 20? 30? If 200 non regular members vote the election will not be relevant. maybe it was not a very good idea to mail all members. Those who log in on regular bases know what's going on.
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Post by marius on Jul 14, 2012 19:51:13 GMT 2
Spikes did notify all the members which I think is a good thing. However as you can see - only the active members cared to take part in the vote but at least everybody was informed. I think a poll like this is very important in order for us (LOCSA) to come to a conclusion and make the correct decision.
Marius
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Post by ladanivabelgium on Jul 14, 2012 19:52:51 GMT 2
marius, also true
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Post by ladanivabelgium on Jul 15, 2012 7:38:36 GMT 2
again a large one, but please read it through
Just for the record: i voted 'no'. Why? Because i feel that there's no formal management needed. However, we need a group who runs the forum and some people for the events. We just need an administrator and some moderators. Two moderators can act as chair person and vice chair person. I do believe that at least the 2 main moderators must be people who: 1. are registered here for a number of years 2. have owned or own a Niva for a number of years 3. Log in on practicly daily bases 4. who are able to moderate discussions like this one without getting personal
I for one don't see a reason to elect a treasurer because there is no club money. I also don't see a reason to elect an event person for Europe (although i feel flattered for the nomination). If you guys would ever plan a trip to Belgium, just say the word and you will not get bored. I don't have to be an official event person for that.
Why do i feel that only 'elders to the forum' should have these important possitions? For example, and i get in deep water here (spikes, please don't feel offended, it's just an example): Spikes has registered in april 2010, wich is just over 2 years. So i come to the fact that he's owned his Niva for 2 years now. Interest may fade away. Two years are just 2 years. So i feel that his position is given to him a bit soon, although he's doing a great job as global moderator. We al are lucky, because Spikes turned out to be a great addition to the moderator team. But still.... Spikes, again: this is not personal
I must admit, I pleads guilty because we also have a 'jonkie' as mod and event organiser. And he's not also young to the forum, but also in age. And he's also doing a great job. So there are exceptions to the rule.
I remember reading somewhere that there must be an election every 2 years. Why is this so? Is this registered? I don't think so, because LOCSA is not a registered club. So why not make this rule disappear? it's going great the way it is now. If someone want's to take it more easy from now on (i believe marius?), why not sit together with 'the management' and find someone to take his place?
If the day ever comes that i've lost my interest in Niva's and our Belgian club, there will be no elections. I'll hand it over to Walby and Steel, my vice chair men. They have proven over the years that they love the club and they can manage things.
By God, we are not a government, we are just some Niva adepts crazy enough to keep them running.
I hope it's august soon, so we can get back to the important things in life: Niva, beer and women, not necessaraly in that order
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Post by spikes on Jul 15, 2012 7:48:17 GMT 2
No offence taken, Jan. As usual, constructive input from you Thanks Spikes
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Post by danie on Jul 15, 2012 8:52:29 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie
I gave your comments some deep thought, and realized that you will always try to make anything I do look suspicious.
I have had enough of that, and decided rather to stop making any further contributions to our Lada community.
This decision is final, and will never be retracted.
Danie
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Post by ronnie on Jul 15, 2012 8:58:05 GMT 2
Hi Jan
I would vote YES for your very constructive suggestions. All you say is exactly what is required.
Ronnie
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Post by ronnie on Jul 15, 2012 9:05:24 GMT 2
Hi Danie
You are welcome to blame me if that is the way you feel. If you were not so negative and gave your opinions the wayfor example Jan has given his, you may have had some more support. All you are doing is the same as the last time.
Ronnie
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Post by marius on Jul 15, 2012 9:29:50 GMT 2
Hi Jan This time I agree (with almost everything!) ;D ;D ;D The ONLY ingredient you need to run LOCSA is ENTHUSIASM - nothing else. No matter how old or young you are or how long you've owned a Niva. Spikes is a born Moderator and is perfect for the job. It is also nice to see the enthusiasm from "young" guys like Steve. It is guys like these who will ensure that LOCSA will prosper. Don't worry Jan - I already know that you'll agree with me ;D Marius
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Post by ladanivabelgium on Jul 15, 2012 10:24:37 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie I gave your comments some deep thought, and realized that you will always try to make anything I do look suspicious. I have had enough of that, and decided rather to stop making any further contributions to our Lada community. This decision is final, and will never be retracted. Danie I regret this, danie, and maybe you should think this through some more. After all, there's only 14 hours between those 2 posts, of wich you were a sleep (old man as you are ;D) for 12 hours. So in my opinion you gave this matter max 2 hours of attention. I thougt about voting/not voting more then a day, and again some hours how to vote, and those decisions were far less important then yours If your decision is indeed final, God bless you and have long, safe and prosper life
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Post by ronnie on Jul 15, 2012 14:09:38 GMT 2
Hi Marius
Spikes is the best Moderator we have had. He is a natural. Apologies to YOU and ME. I also like to see all the new young blood who have joined and do have a real interest in LOCSA, and have a lot of knowledge. They are the ones who will keep LOCSA alive.
Ronnie
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