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Post by marius on Jun 4, 2010 9:50:52 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie I checked the AG380 air filter again this morning. I still can't see anything wrong with the fit and there is no rattle. Perhaps the rattle that you hear is something that needs to be tightened on the carb or the housing? The lid does not fit solidly onto the housing - meaning that it's touching the filter - which in turn would indicate that it is sealing properly at the top. Only just though! Your rubber seal is a good idea. The OD on the AG715 is way off - so personally I wouldn't recommend it. PS - Danie's info on the larger oil filter makes perfect sense. Regards Marius
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Post by ronnie on Jun 4, 2010 12:45:32 GMT 2
Hi Marius
I took the whole filter assembly off and assembled it on the bench, the filter was lose enough to rattle. Unless there is a difference in your filter base the recess in the base of mine has an outside diameter 230mm and the filter an outside diameter of 238 mm. This means the filter cannot sit in the recess. Now with the home made seal it does sit nicely in the base, and it does not rattle. I agree the AG715 will be worse.
Regards
Ronnie
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Post by ronnie on Jun 4, 2010 13:11:45 GMT 2
Hi Marius Decided to check valve clearances so filter and housing off again. I have assembled it all again and i can confirm the filter is loose enough to move with your fingers this is without my home made gasket.
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Post by marius on Jun 4, 2010 14:12:51 GMT 2
That is strange Anyways your seal is a good fix
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Post by Ari Bezuidenhout on Jun 4, 2010 16:27:29 GMT 2
Hi All
The smaller oil filter will increase pressure in the channels below the filter but decrease oil pressure above the filter. In other words it could make your oil pump work harder and wear out quicker, will change mine to long at next service.
Ari
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Hercules
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
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Post by Hercules on Jun 4, 2010 18:12:36 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie.
I measure the recess on my air cleaner and it measure 240mm.
The AG715 sit on the top rim of the recess but the AG715 got a lip of about 3mm both sides on the ID which stand up. This lip sit close to the inside recess and there is a clear mark where it seal off all the way around. The pressure on the lid is about 5mm on the filter element. I'm fairly sure that the AG715 seal off fairly good. The AG380 will definitly rattle inside my air cleaner.
Regards.
Hercules
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Hercules
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Lada - your peace of mind to take on the world's vast landscapes.
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Post by Hercules on Jun 4, 2010 18:21:11 GMT 2
Hi Andy.
Is it possible you can provide us the dimensions of the original air filter element on the 1.7 Lada.
Regards.
Hercules
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Post by danie on Jun 4, 2010 18:29:26 GMT 2
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Post by ronnie on Jun 4, 2010 18:52:55 GMT 2
Hi Hercules
The recess in yours is a full 10mm bigger than mine, and that would solve my problem. I am OK with the seal I have cut, but it would pay all to check their filter. Air also takes the path of least resistance, so if the filter is loose it cannot do it`s job. Play safe and check.
Regards
Ronnie
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Post by ronnie on Jun 4, 2010 18:59:54 GMT 2
Hi Danie Every thing is now as clear as mud . Seriously it looks as if most would recommend the long filter,and as there is plenty space I think I will use either the Z95 or the Z123 that Hercules uses. Regards Ronnie
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Hercules
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Lada - your peace of mind to take on the world's vast landscapes.
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Post by Hercules on Jun 4, 2010 19:10:28 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie.
I did find another filter which might solve the problem. It is the AG726 and the dimensions is as follow.
OD = 235 ID = 175 H = 67
Regards.
Hercules
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Hercules
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Lada - your peace of mind to take on the world's vast landscapes.
Posts: 785
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Post by Hercules on Jun 4, 2010 19:29:25 GMT 2
Hi All.
Here are the difference between the oil filters.
Z87; Seal inside dia = 62mm Can OD = 93mm Height = 58mm
Z95; Seal inside dia = 62mm Can OD = 93mm Height = 120mm
Z123 Seal inside dia = 62mm Can OD = 93mm Height = 97mm
All the above filters have a thread of 3\4 - 16 UNF, Anti drain valve and a bypass valve of 100kpa.
Regards.
Hercules
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Post by Ari Bezuidenhout on Jun 4, 2010 20:13:37 GMT 2
Hi
I think I'll measure my airbox tomorrow as it seems like a new air filter is probable at the next service. Only 3500km away.
Ari
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Post by ronnie on Jun 4, 2010 20:35:50 GMT 2
Hi Hercules
The AG 175 Is Better in some respects, but I would be worried about the height as it must be close to not allowing the housing to close properly. If it sealed otherwise it would only mean that you were drawing some warm air from under the bonnet and perhaps splashed water. It will be interesting to see what measurements Ari`s recess is.
Regards
Ronnie
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Post by lada & korean parts on Jun 5, 2010 4:25:18 GMT 2
approx.measurement of gen.filter (which is same through all niva/samara/classic models)
height 60mm (6cm) outside 225mm (22.5cm) inside 180mm (18cm)
oil filters
bigger DEFINETLY cause oil pressure problems...... this thing where people think bigger is better is absolutely wrong. oil pump has to work much harder for a start to keep filter full & flowing........
all the oil pressure failures here are with larger filters.
gen. filter is approx:
80mm high 95mm accross
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Post by danie on Jun 5, 2010 7:13:43 GMT 2
Hi Andy
I completely disagree with your statement "bigger (oilfilters) DEFINITELY cause oil pressure problems".
Could you please explain how this would be possible ? (From a technical viewpoint please.)
Regards
Danie
P.S. By the way, I always use the biggest filters available on all my vehicles (including my Lada), and never experienced any oil pressure problems in the past.
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Post by ronnie on Jun 5, 2010 9:18:12 GMT 2
Hi Andy and All The genuine filter would be a perfect fit in my housing. ;D. All the after market filters here are the wrong size . I would not trust any of them to seal properly. Regards Ronnie
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Post by ronnie on Jun 5, 2010 9:50:34 GMT 2
Hi Andy and Danie
Oil Filters :- Our replacement filter Z123 would appear to be the closest to the original height 97mm dia 93mm. This is the filter I think Hercules is using. If we want to stick close to original this would be the one to use. Just a thought, surely the bearing clearances would be the deciding factor in oil pressure? A worn motor has low oil pressure due to increased clearances.
Regards
Ronnie
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Post by danie on Jun 5, 2010 11:03:05 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie
Inadequate oil supply (low oil pressure), or dirty oil are obviously the main causes for premature bearing clearance problems, as well as premature wear on many other components. The bearings never get in direct contact with the crankshaft, if the oil supply is clean, and the oil pressure is correct. Therefore, in theory - the bearings, as well as crankshaft should last for ever!
Wear on the oil pumps gears / inner oil pump housing, or a faulty Pressure Relieve Valve (inside the oil pump) are often overlooked, as the cause of low oil pressure, and premature engine failure.
My main concern about the small filters including the original filters is that it should be replaced more often than the bigger filters, simply because of the smaller filter medium. The smaller filter medium simply means that the filter will get blocked faster than a bigger filter - with more filter medium. And when it get blocked, the filter medium will get damaged - the dirty oil will start leaking through, causing wear on the bearings, crankshaft, etc. etc. The Pressurse Releive Valve, inside the oil pump might even open (due to the higher oil pressure) - which means some of the oil which were suppose to lubricate the engine, will be dumped back to the engine sump !
And by the way - the rumor that the bigger filter medium (in a bigger filter) will restrict oil flow, is nothing but a fantasy. In fact, I will set up a test later today or tomorrow - and send pics to illustrate that the opposite is true !
Also, there is no reason to be worried about sealing problems on these aftermarket filters - I have measured the rubber gaskets on the GUD and FRAM filters - they are an exact match ! Will send pics later.
Regards
Danie
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Post by marius on Jun 5, 2010 13:15:49 GMT 2
Hi all
I've been using the local aftermarket filters for nearly 10 years now and experienced no obvious problems so far. No overheating problems. No black/gray smoke from the exhaust and my fuel consumption is quite good.
If there was any problems with oil pressure or excessive dirt in the carb/engine I would have known by now - I hope ;D
I think if something works for you - stick to it.
I use the long oil filter Z96 and the AG380 air filter - not the best quality in the world but if you replace them at regular service intervals they should be fine.
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Post by Ari Bezuidenhout on Jun 5, 2010 13:55:32 GMT 2
Hi
Here are my measurements
H = 63mm
OD = 235mm
ID = 183mm
Ari
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Hercules
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Lada - your peace of mind to take on the world's vast landscapes.
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Post by Hercules on Jun 5, 2010 15:13:12 GMT 2
Hi All.
I'm in the hydraulic business and there is no truth in that bigger filters cause oil pressure problems. All the filters we use in our vehicles got the same grade of filtration of 5microns.
The smaller filters cause a pressure problem after a while due to clocking up. The longer the filter, the longer time it has between changes because it take longer to clock-up. Further more, all our filters we use in vehicles, got a build in by-pass valve that opens on pressure over 100kpa in the filter.
When services been carried out every 10000km, a filter of 90 - 100mm is more than adequate. So the Z95, Z96 and Z123 is suitable for the Lada.
Regards.
Hercules.
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Post by ronnie on Jun 5, 2010 15:37:48 GMT 2
Hi Ari
There seams to be small differences in measurements, however looking at yours the filter should rattle around as the AG380 is only57 mm high and the closed filter is 60mm (difficult to measure but is between 60 and 63mm ) The difference in measurements might depend on what you use to measure it with.I used a compass and rule to try and be accurate.
Regards
Ronnie
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Post by Ari Bezuidenhout on Jun 5, 2010 16:07:38 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie
I used a vernier for depth and a ruler for diameter.
There might be slight differences due to different suppliers for the different year models.
Ari
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Post by lada & korean parts on Jun 7, 2010 3:14:03 GMT 2
when you have a 1600 niva with oil pressure guage,you WILL notice a difference with oil pressure between the genuine & larger,as said oil pump has to work harder to keep pressure for start......... we have a lot of nivas (especially in summer) where oil pressure lights come on,fit genuine filter,light goes out...... that's rubbish regarding smaller filters,unless you're filling up with crap oil.......and oil is changed every 5,000kms as it should be.
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Post by Ari Bezuidenhout on Jun 7, 2010 8:29:51 GMT 2
Hi Andy
Isn't it every 10 ,000km ??
Ari
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Post by ronnie on Jun 7, 2010 9:04:38 GMT 2
Hi Andy
As Ari has mentioned it looks like you change oil every 5000kms whereas here we run 10000. Any time I do a trip through the bush average 5000KM i always change the oil due to the dusty conditions. Perhaps with our hot dusty and dry climate we should also look at 5000kms for oil change. After all it does not take long to change filter and oil.
Regards
Ronnie
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Post by ronnie on Jun 7, 2010 9:20:28 GMT 2
Hi Ari
I have just remembered when I Had your Lada it had a K @ N air filter witch you simply cleaned and re oiled. Have you any idea what happened to it ?. Also does it still have an oil pressure gauge, and if so what does it read when hot, running and idling
Regards
Ronnie.
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Post by Ari Bezuidenhout on Jun 7, 2010 9:29:50 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie
Oil pressure is better when motor is cold. It reads 1 when idling warm and when running +-3000rpm reads 2,5 - 3.
The K&N is missing in action I dont even know what one looks like.
Ari
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Post by ronnie on Jun 7, 2010 10:16:57 GMT 2
Hi Ari
Thanks the pressure looks good. The K @ N looks more or less the same as a gud just costs plenty more.
Regards
Ronnie
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