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Post by keithbatkins on Jan 3, 2012 8:08:05 GMT 2
Good Morning Guys. I have just finished watching the Sports Channel Dakar Rally programme. Did anybody else watch this and spot the red Lada Niva which took part in the first rally in 1978 ? Wonder what place it finished in ? Regards to all at LOCSA. Keith and CERATOTH
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spikes
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Post by spikes on Jan 3, 2012 8:47:35 GMT 2
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spikes
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Post by spikes on Jan 3, 2012 8:51:56 GMT 2
Just to whet your curiosity! Attachments:
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Post by hotstuff on Jan 3, 2012 11:32:33 GMT 2
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spikes
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Post by spikes on Jan 3, 2012 11:45:09 GMT 2
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spikes
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Post by spikes on Jan 10, 2012 6:40:11 GMT 2
De Villiers in now in 6th place while the Electric car (OSCAR) No 370 is in 73rd position spikes
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Post by marius on Jan 10, 2012 7:14:50 GMT 2
Hi Spikes
De Villiers is definitely very much in contention. The electric car is quite amazing with a top speed of 150km/h and a range of 800kms!I think the future for the electric car looks quite bright.
Marius
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Post by ronnie on Jan 10, 2012 16:18:56 GMT 2
Hi Marius
I don`t know much about the electric car but it must be crammed full of batteries to have that range. They have a very long way to go to make an electric car usable for anything other than commuting say 60kms to work and back every day. To be able to use an electric vehicle as you would your petrol one you will need to have a hybrid one.
Ronnie
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spikes
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Post by spikes on Jan 10, 2012 18:38:21 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie Some fast facts: OSCar eO is a range extended electric vehicle with a total range of 800 km in racing conditions. 16 modules of powerful and durable battery packs from Winston Battery with combined voltage of 512 V and total energy of 52 kWh. You can read more about the OSCAR here: oscareo.lv/Spikes
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Post by ronnie on Jan 10, 2012 19:27:02 GMT 2
Hi Spikes If I am reading this correctly it also has a V6 petrol motor driving a generator. So this is not a TRUE ELECTRIC CAR. Or am I reading it wrong. I have done quite a bit of reading on electric cars and they are all very limited as to the distance they can travel. Recharging is also a problem, due to the time involved. Ronnie
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Post by marius on Jan 10, 2012 20:07:00 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie Back in 1996 GE produced a full blown electric car already (yes it was a production car!) with a range of around 300-400kms. Since then battery design has been revolutionized and improved tremendously. Exactly the same technology that you get in the current range of laptops and notebooks. Just compare a laptop (battery) from 96 to one that is currently marketed and you will spot the huge difference. That technology is improving as we speak. Here is some interesting reading on the car GE produced back in 1996! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3FMarius
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Post by marius on Jan 10, 2012 20:19:25 GMT 2
On the OSCAR eO: The OSCar eO is powered by an electric motor nominally rated at 210 kW. A similar electric machine is coupled to an internal combustion engine and functions as a generator to recharge the 52.5 kWh battery pack.
Marius
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Post by ronnie on Jan 10, 2012 20:42:14 GMT 2
Hi Marius
I have yet to see an electric car with a range of 300 to 400 kms unless you go to a hybrid. In the real word people need air con or heater and lights etc the pure electric car that can do this is very far away, We will not even mention being able to recharge and the length of time required for this.
Ronnie
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Post by marius on Jan 10, 2012 21:52:35 GMT 2
Ronnie the EV1 was early 90's technology being produced in the mid to late 90's. The second generation all electric EV1 could reach nearly 300kms. Hybrid versions of the same car reached distances of well over 600kms! A "parallel hybrid" did nearly 900kms! Remember this was all already done in the late 90's. Due to political pressure the program was terminated in 2002.
In 2006, former GM Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner stated that his worst decision during his tenure at GM was axing the EV1 electric car. Political pressure has cost them dearly in gaining a clear advantage in developing future electric and hybrid cars.
Marius
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Post by ronnie on Jan 10, 2012 22:36:12 GMT 2
Hi Marius
When you run an electric car with A/C etc running the range drops drastically. I do not mean there is not a place for them but in there present form it is limited. A hybrid is a different thing altogether and is very viable. The main advantage of electric is it is a clean source of power. That is except here where the bulk of our power is produced from coal. IE no clean power and if we have a lot of electric cars on the road we will be back to the situation of having a shortage of power. Someone living in JHB and working in Pretoria would be able to use an electric car and recharge at night. The problem here is no matter what fuel you use the roads will be just the same, impossible.
Ronnie
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Post by marius on Jan 11, 2012 8:05:03 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie
That was exactly the concept behind the original EV1 with a very limited range of around 50-60 miles (edit). However the range was considered more than adequate for the daily tripper to work and back, leaving his car at work for a charge of around 8 hours. This has however changed dramatically over the years.
The second generation EV1 that was produced just a couple of years later had it's range increased to nearly 300kms. Charging time was reduced to the time it took to have breakfast at the local Wimpy.
There is a huge difference between a lithium based battery of the early 90's and the current range of lithium based batteries. Just compare the size and capacity of the early cell phones with the current generation. They are worlds apart and the technology is still expanding rapidly. There are other types of btys that have even greater potential than the lithium based ones.
South Africa has vast untapped resources of cheap alternative energy. If the politicians and big corporations can get their act together (worldwide) we can all have a better future but unfortunately greed stands in their way.
Marius
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spikes
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Post by spikes on Jan 11, 2012 8:27:21 GMT 2
Hi Spikes If I am reading this correctly it also has a V6 petrol motor driving a generator. So this is not a TRUE ELECTRIC CAR. Or am I reading it wrong. I have done quite a bit of reading on electric cars and they are all very limited as to the distance they can travel. Recharging is also a problem, due to the time involved. Ronnie Hi Ronnie From what I read, the wheels are only driven by electric motors. Yes the car has a Nissan 6 cyl to drive the on board generator BUT the fact remains NO motive power from the engine reaches the wheels. Spikes
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Post by ronnie on Jan 11, 2012 8:56:40 GMT 2
Hi Spikes
I read it the same way as you. They are wrong to call it an electric vehicle it is not. It is a hybrid. If it was powered by batteries only there would not be much room for the driver and passenger. The batteries would take up most of the space. It is the same as the Toyota Prius. I stand by what I said previously, there is no viable electric car on the market to rival the present ICE. the present electric car is limited to commuting to work. If you were caught in heavy traffic with the A/C running you might not get home and in this country that is very probable.
Ronnie
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Post by marius on Jan 11, 2012 9:04:35 GMT 2
On the OSCAR eO: The OSCar eO is powered by an electric motor nominally rated at 210 kW. A similar electric machine is coupled to an internal combustion engine and functions as a generator to recharge the 52.5 kWh battery pack. Marius Ronnie I think you missed this post. I don't think it is quite the same as the Prius oscareo.lv/uploads/eO-presei-nov-15-2011-en.pdfMarius
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Post by spikes on Jan 11, 2012 9:06:41 GMT 2
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Post by ronnie on Jan 11, 2012 11:33:17 GMT 2
Hi Marius
Both vehicles rely on a petrol engine for their range. Therefore they are not genuine electric vehicles. They are Hybrids.
Ronnie
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Post by marius on Jan 11, 2012 12:09:56 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie
I do understand what you are saying but the two concepts are totally different. The combustion engine on the Prius is used for long range (non-city) travel, whilst on the Oscar it is used to charge the batteries AND not drive the car. Anyway the Oscar eO concept is going to be marketed after the Dakar race.
Marius
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Post by ronnie on Jan 11, 2012 15:12:24 GMT 2
Hi Marius
Then they can simply throw the petrol motor away and plug into the mains to recharge the battery.
Ronnie
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Post by ronnie on Jan 11, 2012 15:29:09 GMT 2
Hi Marius When you read up the specs on this car it is no different to the range of any other electric car. It has a range of only between 150 and 300 kms depending on the terrain. It is packed with batteries and carries 200 litres of fuel to be able to use the 3.5 litre V6 to be able to charge it`s batteries and extend it`s range. It is a Hybrid. I am not very good at attaching a file like this so I hope this works. www.conceptcarz.com/z19712/OSCar-eO.aspx. Ronnie
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Post by ronnie on Jan 11, 2012 15:43:58 GMT 2
Hi Marius
Just so every one understands, I am not trying to put down the electric car, but If everyone is being honest with themselves, the statement I made that the electric car is only suitable for commuting is the correct one. To be able to compete with the gasoline powered car it must be be able to refuel quickly and efficiently and none can do this. This includes the so called fast charge which is normally terminated at 80% due to the damaging effects of heat on the batteries. Also to charge fast you need more power on the primary side. IE you will be unable to plug into a normal household socket.
Ronnie
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Post by marius on Jan 11, 2012 16:04:05 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie
Maybe you should read the links Spikes and I provided. That info is from the horses mouth. Most stretches in the Dakar is around 600kms and longer. With your info the car would not be able to compete in the race!
From the link you provided (I had to do a search on the site in order to get to it): "The engineer continues, 'We have selected a race-proven Nissan engine to generate the remainder of the energy required.' The petrol engine will be fed from its own 200 litre fuel tank. 'Yet the propulsion will be 100% electric. The petrol unit will be mounted in the rear of the car and coupled only to the electric generator.'"
Marius
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Post by ronnie on Jan 11, 2012 16:36:23 GMT 2
Hi Marius
I will say this as my last post on the subject so there is no sh@t to carry on. By your own posts the car is a hybrid and cannot do the distance required without the petrol motor and generator. A 3.5 V6 no less. If you care to do some research yourself there are other cars out there which also use a small motor to top up the batteries to increase the range, and they are all hybrid vehicles. you can`t show me any pure electric vehicle which can rival the petrol motor, or can be refueled in a manner which would be acceptable to the general public.
Ronnie
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Post by marius on Jan 11, 2012 19:58:59 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie
My final statement on the matter:
I showed you the EV1 from GM that was a production car in the mid to late 90's. Exactly 1117 cars were produced and was a favourite of many a Hollywood star in California where it was marketed. This included the likes of Mel Gibson and Tom Hanks and many others.
There were nearly 300 charging stations across California and you also got a home charger with the lease. The latest charger - just before it's demise - was able to charge the car in less than 15 minutes!
The car was limited to 80 mph but without the limiter the test car reached 183 mph! The latest battery technology would have brought the cars range to 300kms and beyond! Unfortunately due to bad politics GM put themselves willingly from first place to last.
Just imagine how things would have been right now (10+ years later) if they continued with the development!
As far as the Oscar and the Pruis is concerned. You said in an earlier post that "It (the Oscar) is the same as the Toyota Prius." My reply was "the two concepts are totally different. The combustion engine on the Prius is used for long range (non-city) travel, whilst on the Oscar it is used to charge the batteries AND not drive the car."
Marius
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Post by ronnie on Jan 12, 2012 9:23:06 GMT 2
To Marius
I find it most annoying how you will never admit to anything I say. In your last post on the matter you again make the statement that the Toyota prius uses the petrol motor to drive the car and extend the range and the Oscar uses the petrol motor to charge the batteries and not drive the car. I find this an insult to my intelligence. The power it generates is used to drive the car and EXTEND ITS RANGE. And with the size of the motor and the quantity of fuel it carries it is very inefficient. You appear to go out of your way to dismiss everything I say, as you did with the 2 nuts. I used to get a lot of pleasure out of LOCSA but not now. I will make this my last post and you will not have the problem of me posting what you do not like.
To All other members
I thank you for your support you have given me over the last 2 years and all the technical tips and assistance you have given me. It is all appreciated. I tendered my resignation to Kobus as Moderator last week so that he has time to appoint a new one as I will leave SA on the 23rd February. I now tender my resignation as Vice Chairman to allow you all to appoint some one to finish my term of office. If I can assist anyone with any thing please fell free to PM me and I will respond with pleasure.
Ronnie
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Ladaniva
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Post by Ladaniva on Jan 12, 2012 14:09:00 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie, I agree with you that the Dakar electric car and the Prius are both hybrid in the sense that without the help of the gasoline engine on-board the vehicle will simply not have the range (and is therefore not an efficient vehicle in any language or context of rallying). In my opinion: extremely inefficient and running the vehicle in the Dakar is a publicity stunt only. (A simple fact on the side: money makes the world go around. In other words anybody with enough money can feature in the Dakar, bar driving error, from there that the main manufacturers names feature - the vehicles they are running not even remotely correspond with production vehicles - unless you know nothing). I think what Marius is trying to get over is that the Prius type of electric vehicle use the gasoline engine to drive two wheels sometimes (if the batteries run out) and sometimes the batteries separately can drive the wheels via the electric motor (in fact sometimes both the electric and gasoline engine together can drive the two front wheels of the Prius!) and therefore the concept of driving the wheels is different from the Dakar car. That is all he is saying. See the attached. The intention thus of Marius (by using the Dakar car) is to hype the potential of a car that is solely driven by electric power (stored in batteries). Therefore, according to Marius you did not get the point that technology improved to such an extend that mass production of all-electric vehicles for normal use is actually quite viable. So ,again, both of you are right at the same time (see my earlier posts in this regard)! You both do not know it maybe but the whole discussion actually brought the rest of us right up to speed on the progress with all- electric propulsion for mass produced vehicles.! No need to get worked up; we need both your guys to make the forum real and valuable; read: scratched off the hype read the facts! . What stunned me was these factual statements in the literature presented by you guys: 1)."Ovonics, had been suppressed from announcing improved batteries...." They were the guys that supplied the batteries for the first mass produced electric car! Clearly not politics that influenced global warming of today but simple greed by GM! Imagine Bosch being suppressed to announce the successful testing and production of the common rail diesel systems of nowadays! 2) The official statement of GM:"despite the substantial investment of money and the enthusiastic fervor of a relatively small number of EV1 drivers — including the filmmaker — the EV1 proved far from a viable commercial success." Playing with words, because "enthusiastic fervor" are dream words for any one in marketing of anything! Of course there were only a small number of EV1 drivers, because GM limited the numbers produced! Responding to the film's harsh criticisms for discontinuing the EV1, he outlines GM's reasons for doing so, implying that GM did so because of poor consumer demand despite "significant sums (spent) on marketing and incentives develop a mass market for it," and inadequate support from parts suppliers, which would have made "future repair and safety of the vehicles difficult to nearly impossible." He also expressed that, "no other major automotive manufacturer is producing a pure electric vehicle for use on public roads and highways." Again, playing with words, because specialised parts suppliers for electric vehicles would have jumped to increase their market share! The parts suppliers he referred to were the parts manufacturers of the existing vehicles of the time that may have complained! (I think not actually - it was simply a matter of hugely reducing the income stream of GM if less parts are required). This is what the future will undoubtedly prove; electric vehicles will drastically cut the exploitation of nature. Greed is currently eating the globe like a mealie! Regards, Fanus
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