bobbyd
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Post by bobbyd on Nov 1, 2010 10:59:02 GMT 2
Now I will have to measure my roller tensioner and post up measurements! I will post up some dimensions for the brackets to lift the alternator to the LHS of the engine
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Post by ronnie on Nov 1, 2010 12:26:50 GMT 2
Hi Bob
The left hand side of mine is already taken up with a A/C compressor ;D. Much more important (to me).
Ronnie
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darryn
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Post by darryn on Nov 7, 2010 17:11:29 GMT 2
Hey guys
I got all the cylinder head bolts out, except the one closest to the passenger seat. That one stripped. I first used a socket with teeth (that grabs the head on the corners) and then used one that the grabs the sides of the head (hex shaped). I realize that this is not "ideal" to strip the head of a cylinder head bolt while it's still in. WTF do I do now?
I thought of getting an angle grinder and cutting a 3mm notch in the bolt's head, making a tool that would fit inside this notch and turn it out like a screw, but something tells me that this won't really work (for a whole host of reasons).
I'm getting quite moedeloos now.
Later Darryn.
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Post by Ari Bezuidenhout on Nov 7, 2010 17:34:26 GMT 2
Hi Darryn
You can try cutting the head of the bolt off, and then lift the cylinder head off. Once the cylinder head is off you can try to turn it out with a vice-grip etc.
Ari
PS If you need help shout, I've had my cylinder head off twice already, been there , done that etc.
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darryn
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Post by darryn on Nov 7, 2010 18:16:23 GMT 2
Thanks Ari, that's really cool of you- but how do I cut the bolt? It's the one right in the corner. I'll take another look at it to see if I can fit a slim disk in there. Won't the tension the bolt pinch the blade?
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Post by ronnie on Nov 7, 2010 18:35:43 GMT 2
Hi Darryn
Centre punch the head accurately and drill it out with progressively bigger drills. If you are accurate with your centre punch to begin with you should have no problem. Do not drill deeper than the thickness of the bolt head.
Ronnie
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Hercules
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Post by Hercules on Nov 7, 2010 18:39:38 GMT 2
Hi Darryn.
Get your welding machine closer and weld another bolt on to the stripped head and then turn the bolt out by using the new bolt head.
Regards.
Hercules
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Post by ronnie on Nov 7, 2010 19:16:11 GMT 2
Hi Hercules
That is another good way and the heat running down the bolt should also help to loosen it.
Ronnie
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Hercules
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Post by Hercules on Nov 7, 2010 19:28:07 GMT 2
Thanks Ronnie.
We used it a lot of times to remove stripped bolts from hydraulic cylinders.
Regards
Hercules
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Post by danie on Nov 7, 2010 19:40:53 GMT 2
Hi Darryn
If you try to drill the bolt head out (as Ronnie suggested) just bear in mind that the first drillbit usually tend to move sideways in the beginning - even if a hole has been punched dead center before you start drilling. I have seen this many times at work, but I am sure that you do know this already.
Rather be very patient when you start drilling that first hole, and make sure that it is dead center.
Once the bolt head has been drilled out, it should be fairly easy to unscrew the bolt by using a vice grip - the cylinder head should obviously be removed before you will be able to unscrew the bolt.
If you decide to weld another bolt to the original one, I think the welding needs to be very strong. I also battled to unscrew some cylinder head bolts on my Lada, and I guess the welded bolt might just snap at the welding between the two bolts - if not done properly.
Regards
Danie
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darryn
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Post by darryn on Nov 7, 2010 20:50:01 GMT 2
Thanks guys- I thought of the drilling technique, but wasn't sure about how the stress would be released once the bits start getting wider. I was imagining a scenario where I drill up to 11mm and then the whole thing just shatters and turns into shrapnel. Maybe I'm giving the tensility of these bolts too much credit.
I like the welding idea. My welding is pretty good... Although I was warned against welding high tensile steel, because it's not the weld you need to worry about- it's the steel that breaks in unpredictable ways- that's the theory anyway... But now that I see that someone has done it before makes me relax a bit. I've been taught to err on the side of caution in my apprenticeship, but I guess that bolt isn't going to magically unscrew itself by me being too cautious.
Thanks once again guys.
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Ventzel
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Post by Ventzel on Nov 7, 2010 23:34:19 GMT 2
Sorry guys but all this business - drilling, cutting, welding an extra bolt is crazy. And will lead to more damages.
You can't drill it - the material is X-steel - almost strong as the drill bit. You need diamond drill. And how will remove the extra piece from the cylinder block later?
You can't cut it - no room for the angle grinder there, especially for the bolt No 9. And the bolt is tightened with torque 120 Nm about 10 years ago. To release it will be necessary even bigger force - I'll be very exciting to see what type of screwdriver or vice grip will do it.
Welding a second bolt wont help, the welding spot is not stronger then the socket itself.
Get a new GEDORE Metrinch socket. Not with 12 corners, not even with 6 (hexagonal) - metrinch type only, which inner profile acting on the bolt's sides, not on the corners (I believe the corners are damaged). Put it on the bolt's head in position to unscrew, i.e. not loose (with free play) but firmly touching the bolt's sides and ready to turn to the left. Get the welding machine and electrode 2.0 mm or 2.5 max. Carefully weld the socket to the bolt's head as much as possible. Then turn it to release. Of course the socket will be wasted, but this is the smallest problem as I can see.
Go ahead.
V.
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Post by danie on Nov 8, 2010 6:39:44 GMT 2
I'll be very exciting to see what type of screwdriver or vice grip will do it. Hi Ventz I did not think about the hardness of the bolt - you are correct, it will be extremely difficult to drill a hole in the bolt. As far as a screwdriver or vice grip is concerned - once a bolt head has been drilled out, one might be able to unscrew the bolt stem by hand, and there might be no need for a vice grip at all. We often see this at work in other applications. The reason - the tightness of the bolt is usually caused by the bolt head (hexed part) pressing down on the surface below. Once the bolt head (hexed part) has been removed, there is no down force on the surface below, and the bolt is not tight any longer. Unless the bolt thread is rusted, I can't think of any reason why it might be too difficult to remove the bolt from Darryn's engine block - should he be able to drill the hexed part out obviously........ On my Lada I battled like hell to remove some of the head bolts, simply because it has been overtightened - there was no rust involved. Regards Danie
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bobbyd
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Post by bobbyd on Nov 8, 2010 11:40:20 GMT 2
A cobolt drill cut down through the bolt head, I have done it a few times, starting with a 1/8 drill bit and slowly working up till the head can be twisted/cold chieseled off and then wind the bolt out with small stilsons/pipe wrench
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Post by ronnie on Nov 8, 2010 18:09:36 GMT 2
Hi Bob
I might as well be the one to ask what is a cobolt drill?
Ronnie
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Post by danie on Nov 8, 2010 19:14:35 GMT 2
While the tightness of Lada head bolts are under discussion - when I battled to remove the head bolts on my Lada, I decided not to tighten the heads bolts on my Lada during re-assembling, as described at the service manual. I just wondered why Lada head bolts (according to the manual) need to be heavily torqued during assembling, and never afterwards. After all, it is common knowledge that the head bolts on most engines need to be re-torqued after a run in period. Any reason why Lada cylinder head bolts can't be torqued a bit less initially - and then just be re-torqued at about 1000 to 1500 kms ? Danie
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Post by Charles on Nov 8, 2010 19:32:54 GMT 2
Danie i have never retorqued a head. You will see on heads where the bolts are under the cams gets a very high torque. The reason being if you had to retorque them you would have to remove the cam and on most cars that isnt a small job.
Charles
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Post by danie on Nov 8, 2010 19:48:28 GMT 2
Thanks Charles - explanation excepted.
I must admit the engines which I have rebuilt myself during my lifetime were all old technology (push-rod cams , not overhead cams) , and the cylinder heads usually had to be re-torqued.
Danie
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bobbyd
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Post by bobbyd on Nov 8, 2010 22:45:38 GMT 2
A cobolt drill is a drill for drilling in hard stuff! gold in colour and affordable
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Ventzel
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Post by Ventzel on Nov 8, 2010 23:16:07 GMT 2
The cylinder head gaskets were different long time ago, for the most of the cars, incl. old Ladas. They were thicker and had a thin copper plates both sides. They had to be re-torqued
The modern gaskets don't need re-torque; and the drive train mechanisms are more sofisticated now, even with no more push rods and rockers today most of the cars have two camshafts and 4 or 5 valves to each cylinder. It isn't easy to get access to the head's bolts again and it's not necessary.
Ventz
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Ventzel
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Post by Ventzel on Nov 9, 2010 0:31:57 GMT 2
What about Darryn's cylinder head - Danie is right about the bolt's head which ensure the tightness of the bolt but the thread also has its tightness when 10 or more screws of the stem are involved in the tie, especialy the fine thread. ABC of engineering. It wont be possible to unscrew the bolt stem by hand; personally I can't do that - I'll need some tools.
The question was that I do not believe is possible to drill the bolt's head, to make a screwdriver slot there (on top of that there is still not invented yet screwdriver to unscrew bolt tightened 120 Nm) or to grind the bolt's head. Especialy this bolt, some others could be easier. Bolt No 9 is the worst of all ten bolts. Close to the corner, deep inside cylinder head, studs and ribs around. No any grinder can work there, perhaps dentist's machine only.
Rgds
V.
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bobbyd
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Post by bobbyd on Nov 9, 2010 4:00:17 GMT 2
If the grinder cant get in then its the drill
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Post by ronnie on Nov 9, 2010 8:11:30 GMT 2
Hi Bob Thanks for the information. Funnily enough I have some gold ones in my collection Ronnie
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bobbyd
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Post by bobbyd on Nov 9, 2010 10:45:38 GMT 2
Any sharp drill will do it really, Head bolts arent anything extra special. Just a sharp small piolet drill with lube slow slow slow and when down far enough which would proberly only be 8-10mm just keep increaseing the drill sizes.
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darryn
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Post by darryn on Nov 10, 2010 21:41:24 GMT 2
I'm gonna try Ventz's socket weld technique this weekend. just waiting on some cash... Also, the lada is parked at my complex, so no workshop full of tools nearby- gonna have to rent an induction welding machine because asking to take home the workshops power tools wouldn't be right.
I'll let everyone know how it goes!
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Post by Charles on Nov 10, 2010 23:58:56 GMT 2
Good luck. Hope you get it out first time.
Charles
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Post by ronnie on Nov 11, 2010 8:59:42 GMT 2
Hi Darryn Best of luck. If it does not work try to drill it. Hope your welding is better than mine Ronnie
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Post by ronnie on Nov 13, 2010 12:07:55 GMT 2
Hi Darryn
I was looking at the bolt you are having problems with. It is in a very awkward place and you will be limited in the ways you can remove it. Either Ventz`s method or drill it. I can`t see how you could get a grinder in there. I will be looking for your report as to how you get on. Good luck!
Ronnie
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Post by Charles on Nov 13, 2010 17:03:21 GMT 2
If you drill the head off the bolt the bolt should come out easily as there is no tension on the bolt anymore, unless the threads are rusted. I have done it. Not on a Lada engine but same thing.
Charles
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darryn
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Post by darryn on Nov 14, 2010 15:39:54 GMT 2
The two bent valves are the exhaust valves on cylinders 1 and 3.
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