|
Post by Charles on Nov 13, 2010 16:52:25 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie
I know it sounds very low. 0.7 bar is actually high already. Fi can run that with just a chip. I know 0.8 bar on a 2.0l opel engine gives over 200kw on the wheels! We have a 1800 golf in town running 0.3 bar and he gets 140kw on the wheels. On a Lada motor (even if its a brand new engine) I wouldnt ever go above 0.5 bar boost. It just puts too much stress on the internals.
Charles
|
|
|
Post by danie on Nov 13, 2010 17:34:55 GMT 2
Hi Danie I would seriously reconsider if I were you. . Hi Marius This incident has not scared me off at all - it just proved what I believed even before I bought the Supercharger: Only a very mild boost should be used on a Lada. I believe one should be very careful not to exceed the Lada's inherent drive train limits - I believe the way the Transfer box has been mounted, is not perfectly suitable for a "wild" boost, and the mounting rubbers could be a definite cause of problems on a mod like this. I don't think the Transfer Box itself should be any reason for concern. After all, the Transfer Box seem to be the most reliable component in the drive train. Ronnie, I do not know what the exact boost on this mod is, but I think the boost is definitely way too "wild" for a Lada. I did some calculations at work - as far as I can remember, both pulleys (driving pulley and the pulley on the SC 12 Supercharger) should be almost the same size on a 1700cc engine / 0.7 bar modification. The pulley on this owner's Supercharger is definitely smaller than his driving pulley - which means his boost will be more than 0.7 bar........ Regards Danie
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Nov 13, 2010 18:07:31 GMT 2
Hi Charles
I don`t know about the Lada`s internals, perhaps we should rather worry more about Danie`s ;D ;D
Ronnie
|
|
bobbyd
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 575
Registered: Oct 11, 2009 11:58:35 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by bobbyd on Nov 14, 2010 1:14:19 GMT 2
Extensive tests have proven the standard T/C can cope with 280hp.
|
|
|
Post by danie on Nov 14, 2010 6:48:49 GMT 2
Hi Bobby Do you have more details about this extensive tests ? Has the Transfer boxes been mounted to the Ladas when these tests have been carried out ?
And more important questions in this regard: Who has done these tests and who is the source of this information ? (if not done professionally and independently for an extended period, I would prefer to ignore this "test report" completely) For what period (how many hours) has the Transfer been submitted to these tests? And how long did these Transfer Boxes last The purpose of this thread is to find out whether a Lada would be reliable with a Supercharger installation , or not. Therefore I did not hesitate to report the Transfer Box failure. One must be very careful not to be misleaded by the "denial brigade" in Lada Niva circles. They often try their best to convince everyone about the "indestructible" Lada Niva, and often point fingers to other people who "might not know what they are doing" . Everyone should rather trust their own "gut feeling" in this regard........ Regards Danie
|
|
bobbyd
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 575
Registered: Oct 11, 2009 11:58:35 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by bobbyd on Nov 14, 2010 9:57:22 GMT 2
I think the part that would let a supercharged Niva down would be the clutch, but saying that 145hp efi Fiat twincams dont cause any problems and Hdi peugeots have a lot of torque. The tests were done by a french race team during their Daker prep, I do have the data so I will try and find it but I think they had the T/C mounted with four standard mounts (I think).Im with Charles .3 whichis just below 5psi would give enough grunt and would provide hassle free motoring. .7 bar is 10psi, that is PLENTY for any standard engine and any standard engine management but that said even if a Niva engine doubled its power it would mean only 100 to 120hp would get to the T/C
|
|
ladanivabelgium
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 962
Location: EU
Town: Kessel, Belgium
Registered: Nov 5, 2010 19:50:31 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by ladanivabelgium on Jan 19, 2011 19:24:22 GMT 2
Thanks Jan That is just one of the major reasons why most petrol driven Nivas have some vibration as the front diff is fastened to the engine. Do you suffer from any vibration on your Niva? Regards Marius no vibrations what so ever, but that has nothing to do with the front diff. If the TC is propperly lined out you'll have no vibrations on a 17i.
|
|
|
Post by danie on Jan 20, 2011 18:37:09 GMT 2
Just an update about the Supercharger installation.
Today I have seen the owner of the Supercharged Lada, and he seems to be very happy about the mod to his Lada.
More details about this mod - done after the pics have been forwarded to this forum:
1. An additional fuel injector has been installed at the stainless steel intake manifold, just above the TB injector. This injector gets activated by a pressure switch, only after the Supercharger has been activated with a toggle switch.
2. Fuel supply to the additional fuel injector gets controlled by pressure switches, and a complete independent, electronic fuel management system.
3. Fuel consumption is still about 10 km/L during normal driving conditions, and about 11.6 km/L when the Supercharger gets activated.
So this mod seems to have a happy ending, despite the temporary set back at the dyno test.
Any owner who might be interested, can contact Franco Motors, 244 Umbilo Road, 4001 - the tel nr. is (031) 2014790 . They specialize in Fiat and Alfa cars, and the owner told me that they also have a lot of Lada experience...
Danie
|
|
Ladaniva
Full Niva Petrol Head
A Lada Niva for a new lease of life
Posts: 240
Registered: Apr 1, 2011 21:33:06 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by Ladaniva on May 26, 2011 0:16:44 GMT 2
Hi Danie,
A little bit of information about supercharging the Lada engine (I am in the process to supercharge my Lada Niva 1600 with the same Toyota supercharger (S/C).
A lot of preparation is required even although the Lada engine and drivetrain is perfectly suited for supercharging - provided you do not get carried away (like the guy in Durban).
I will not even consider the mod on a carb Lada - not with the low cost of quality parts and know-how available in South Africa currently. Do not go there; you are going to burn your fingers and money.
The diference between supercharging a Lada and another vehicle is that a Lada must be very reliable while costing not too much (or you could simply buy another common suitable vehicle and still do what a Lada can do). There are not dealers in most towns in Sub Sahara Africa and Ladas are a much higher risk to use offroad/in remote places because of this. This is the long and the short, even for a Lada Niva fanatic like me.
The low cost that you purchased you S/C for will make your conversion viable.
The pro in Durban is not such a pro as you think. I knew from the outset that the mod with the Lada single throttle body fuel injector would not work (and I am not even a pro). The second major bo-boo he made was not to start off with an ECU (electronic control unit) when you supercharge a vehicle (especially one that may travel at many altitudes and very much varying driving conditions). Then he has the audacity to dyno test the vehicle at high revs ( I hope not before he fitted the extra injector and the ECU). There is no need to dyno test a vehicle like a Lada - the vehicle is put on the dyno to tune it (from there that he fitted the extra injector and an ECU - which he should have done from the outset. That out of the way, now to the nuts and the bolts.
Also do not supercharge the fuel injected lada 1700 (this is why the Durban Pro had to fit another injector and a seperate ECU). I tried any trick in the book to stick to the Lada single throttle body (he, he also even thought of sticking an extra injector in somwhere, like the Durban pro had to do because he is not a pro and had to save some face by sticking to his guns and put the extra injector upstream outside the throttle body - geld was stom is maak reg wat krom is). The choke in the 1700 throttle body is too small (this is the pipe where the fuel and air must enter into the engine, which is regulated by the "flap" that opens and close). Why on earth will you supercharge and at the same time restrict the flow of air. Now you understand why the pro installed the intercooler afterwards (ten duurste) - it is to cool the air to get more in - nothing more. - egg on the face - I think it is an ostrich egg!
In the case of the Lada you will have (at least) to get a intake manifold built complete with four injectors. Finish and klaar.
Do not waste your money on low boost. The boost from your supercharger is very controlable. As the other member quite rightly mentioned the pulley size restrict maximum boost in any case (even huisvrouens met babas drive around in heavy traffic in the 1600 supercharged toyotas and know nothing about superchargers). The electrically activated cluth on the supercharger is used to disconnect it at a selected boost (or rpm etc), whatever you feed to the ECU/take from the ECU - other things also possible). It is that simple. It is like driving any other car (I should know because my standard merc was supercharged and not even the badge tells you that).
Enough cleverness for one day. Just supercharge and enjoy - superchargers do not break engines (or transfer boxes, he, he, but fools do).
If you need names of people that know what they are doing let me know at the time, or ask the other member on this forum that gave you good advice and links earlier (forgot his name). Remember to shop around for the extras (use mr Turbo to check/ compare prices, as another member suggested).
Fanus
|
|
|
Post by danie on May 26, 2011 6:32:21 GMT 2
Hi Fanus I almost missed your post and need to shoot down to work now. Thanks for your comments - will have a proper look at your comments this evening. Regards Danie
|
|
|
Post by Charles on May 26, 2011 13:35:34 GMT 2
Well I have seen many beetles and some other cars running a turbo or supercharger through a carb. I posted a pic of a 1600 with a turbo in the let's have some coffee thread. That one makes 150bhp.
Charles
|
|
|
Post by danie on May 26, 2011 19:49:48 GMT 2
Hi Fanus Thanks for your comments - nice to know that you are involved in a Supercharger installation at the moment ! I am really looking forward to some pics and info about your modification. As far as the local SC mod is concerned - the "Pro" and his son (also a mechanic) who have been involved in the mod , are professional mechanics - but they are not involved in full time Supercharger installations. So I am quite sure that they are not as "on the ball" about these mods as other professionals who are involved in full time Supercharger installations. As far as the owner is concerned - he is very responsible, and I am convinced that the Lada is in very good hands. He loves the Lada and I still see him driving the car quite often. My own SC mod is on hold at the moment - I couldn't resist the temptation of buying a Fiat 125 engine - so at the moment the Supercharger is sitting on the shelve inside the garage, watching me while I am fiddling on the Fiat mod . I am still hoping to install the SC - haven't decided on which engine (Lada or Fiat) yet. It all depends on whether I will be satisfied with the power output of the Fiat engine . Any pics or advice from your side will really be appreciated - so stuur groot s'blief n paar fotos met meer inligting. Groetnis Danie P.S. Marius / Ronnie, any chance that the heading of this Thread can be changed to "Supercharger Installations in South Africa" ? Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by marius on May 26, 2011 20:02:21 GMT 2
Hi Fanus The more I read your posts the more I realize that you are a source of some amazing information and knowledge. I am now VERY HAPPY that you have joined LOCSA Your posts also makes me realize that you are not just a Lada fanatic like all the rest of us, but that you will take great care to do what is best for your car. Marius
|
|
vincentc
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 1,130
Registered: Mar 16, 2011 17:59:16 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by vincentc on May 26, 2011 20:46:42 GMT 2
this thread should rather be called "the quest for power". I am a fan of boosting and believe it is the only way to get maximum efficiency off an engine. Prior to the 206 I had a 407 hdi. What a magic car (not a 4x4) the power was carefully managed at 100kw by the ecu (it contrloled boost pressure and fuel feed) I fully intend to pop in a 2.0 hdi (206) in a Lada at some stage Post pics fanus
|
|
|
Post by danie on May 26, 2011 21:06:13 GMT 2
Hi Vincent
There is also another thread about a Turbo mod at this forum.
Maybe it would be better to keep the threads as is (separate) - because both threads are all about "the quest for power" ?
Danie
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on May 27, 2011 9:52:05 GMT 2
Hi Fanus
Your posts make for interesting reading. It is people like you who can input a lot of knowledge to the forum members. I look forward to your posts.
Ronnie
|
|
vincentc
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 1,130
Registered: Mar 16, 2011 17:59:16 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by vincentc on May 27, 2011 22:38:22 GMT 2
I concur with Ronnie. I would lioke to known how the niva is under odinary circumstances
|
|
simonallen
New Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 20
Registered: Dec 29, 2010 23:45:05 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by simonallen on May 30, 2011 10:54:10 GMT 2
With regards to the transfer box, I know I may not have had the torque with the v6 that you may encounter with a supercharger but I did manage to rip my transfer case off the floor 3 times. All I did to stop it, was replace the m8 studs in the floor to m10 bolts, and this stopped my problems all together. I was able to do four wheel donuts on dry tarmac without issues. I doubt you would be that harsh on your car. The internals of a niva transfer box are far stronger than the internals of it's gearbox.
|
|
vincentc
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 1,130
Registered: Mar 16, 2011 17:59:16 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by vincentc on May 30, 2011 22:38:08 GMT 2
Hi Simon Having been through the birthing pains of a V6 conversion. Do you think the Isuzu 3.2 V6 would fit? I absolutely love the idea of 4 wheel skids
|
|
|
Post by Charles on May 30, 2011 23:23:29 GMT 2
Vincent only one way to find out. Do it. He says it is a mission fitting a V6. I want a V8 niva. Just imagine going sideways around traffic circles in a niva.
Guys concerned about my safety, don't worry. I want to be burried in my niva! At least it will save the paramedics the effort trying to cut me out!
Charles
|
|
|
Post by hotstuff on May 31, 2011 9:04:27 GMT 2
YOU GUYS ARE NUTS.............:-)
|
|
simonallen
New Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 20
Registered: Dec 29, 2010 23:45:05 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by simonallen on Jun 2, 2011 21:49:12 GMT 2
I think anything can fit, a car is only a piece of metal. I would like to point out though, that the ONLY TWO things that were still in their "original" place in my engine bay was the steering box, and the brake master cylinder. everything else had to be moved around. The cross member, the center steering link, the radiator, the diff, the plumbing, the electrics, the oil filter needed relocating, the list goes on. It was fun once I finally got it on the road, but I very nearly gave up on a couple of occasions. I have since got rid of the v6 and am down to a 1.7i hussar model, which in all honesty, is more fun! It's nice to be able to give it some revs and not worry too much about shafts breaking...
|
|
Ladaniva
Full Niva Petrol Head
A Lada Niva for a new lease of life
Posts: 240
Registered: Apr 1, 2011 21:33:06 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by Ladaniva on Jun 3, 2011 0:31:11 GMT 2
Hi Guys,
Thank you for the inspiring words and I intend keeping you guys informed about my progress so that one do not make expensive mistakes (lets face it; that is why we drive Ladas - believe it or not I saw a guy in a new Jeep Cherokee that got stuck in a game reserve on a (wet) level normal dirt road a few weeks ago; a tractor had to tow him out. The engine of the Cherokee made a terrible noise afterwards. I was so glad I drive a Lada. That is why I bought a Lada from the outset; I want to enjoy the wild not worrying what the dammage or trade-in would be after the trip).
Danie: I know a guy here that fitted a Fiat engine in his Lada and it required a lot of work. The car will be as strong as Russia once it runs, no doubt, but be warned (a very, very friendly warning): with all the trouble and cost to get it in there, there is a very strong likelyhood that the front diff is going to break. Jan Lada from Centurion showed me the pile of broken front diff casings in his workshop (and I mean a big pile). Plain scary. If there is a weak link in the drivetrain if you make more torque (and unleash it unresponsibly) this is it. I already enquired, and there is a diff with the correct ratio for my Lada (1600). it is an Isuzu diff. A helpfull and experienced guy that knows everything about diffs and its ratios is Delport Diff in Jhb (he calls the Lada's front diff "a aluminium dffie"- say no more - it can not even be compared to the rear diff of the Lada. I will eventually make that my second phase of my conversion: making the front diff stronger or replacing it. I have few ideas, one even very unconventional but not expensive, but that for much later.
I must say my mouth literally fell open when the one member said that he spinned his Lada in four wheel drive with a V6 and did not even mention that he destroyed the front diff. maybe he can help us and tell us what he did. It will save quite a few bucks all round.
Progress on my supercharger conversion:
I am currently making the inlet manifold for the engine from aluminium (four separate fuel injectors with a single throttle body). I saved a lot of work and time by having the adapter plate to the engine laser-cutted (hope it make sense). TW Profile cc in Boksburg supplied the six mm aluminium and have cut all the holes for +- R140.00. I think it is a bargain. A lot of hand work was required to match the adapter plate to the engine after the precission cutting, because the head was gasflowed, and the ports therefore larger and not just round - also angled (inlet and outlet ports have different angles in the vertical plane). In the end it will be worthwhile (everything done by hand with files). I will post a phote next time.
I made an apointment with my tuner for my Lada, who's personal car is a supercharged Jaguar, stock standard from the factory. He regularly fit turbos and superchargers to cars (some very expensive cars like Porches and Vipers, just to mention two in his workshop currently). Say no more.
Something different now: Danie, I did not try to run the pro in Durban down on a personal level (I do not even know them); I hopefully only shared a valuable lesson for all our guys with red blood in our veins (and who like just enough power ;D); when it comes to modifying vehicles nothing beats experience and sound knowledge of the principles or theory behind the vehicle concerned and the new things that goes into the vehicle. The incident with the transfer case that failed and using the standard throttle body clearly demonstrated this. Good is not always the best, and if you are alone in the wild you may need the best, in this case a well engineered reliable Lada.
Regards,
Fanus
|
|
simonallen
New Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 20
Registered: Dec 29, 2010 23:45:05 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by simonallen on Jun 3, 2011 9:35:02 GMT 2
This little gem here: is why I didnt break my front diff. It's actually a rear one! I cut down a rear axle casing and welded two machined flanges onto it and mnounted it to the cross member. This diff has been worth it's weight in gold, and is now living on my 1.7 I have the drawings here for the casing if anyone is interested in building one... the above pic is in it's infancy when I was building the mounts for it. The mounts were very beefy to control the movement of the diff, I have recently spent a lot of time cutting it all back off again so that I could mount it the "standard way" on my 1.7
|
|
|
Post by hotstuff on Jun 3, 2011 14:13:38 GMT 2
HECTIC WORK,,ANY WAY I CAN BRING IN THE NEW CAST IRON FRONT DIFF HOUSING. OBVIOUSLY STRONGER BIT PRICEY BUT WELL WORTH IT
|
|
|
Post by marius on Jun 3, 2011 17:22:58 GMT 2
Thanks Fanus and Simon for 2 (yet again) very useful posts Marius
|
|
|
Post by danie on Jun 3, 2011 18:10:11 GMT 2
Hi Fanus Thanks for your comments - I am really looking forward to more info and pics about the progress on your modification. At this stage I think there is a good chance that I will eventually do a Supercharger or Turbo mod to the Fiat engine. I have seen some positive comments about these mods to Fiat engines elsewhere on the web, and still need to do more reading in this regard. I do agree about the Lada front diffs, and I am fully aware of some other weak spots as well . Although I would like a more powerful engine, I am fully aware of the fact that mods like these could easily cause major damage to a Lada. You might find this very strange, but I am quite sure that I am one of the "more cautious" Lada owners at this Forum . Although I do like "engine power", I never abuse my cars or motorcycles in any way . In fact - some comments by some members at this forum makes me think that their Ladas will definitely not last as long as mine, with mods 'n all ! Anyway - I did not see your comments about the local "Pro" as personal. Your comments are indeed very appreciated ! Please don't forget to send many pics ! Regards Danie
|
|
|
Post by ronnie on Jun 3, 2011 19:02:13 GMT 2
Hi Danie
If a Niva sits in a garage it will last for ever ;D ;D ;D
Ronnie
|
|
|
Post by danie on Jun 3, 2011 19:50:26 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie
Unfortunately the thickness of my wallet is directly linked to the well being of the economy out there, and I do have other obligations - like close family ties (abroad), and other lifelong interests, like motorcycles ....
Fortunately the sun will always be shining out there !
Hopefully that explains it all.
Danie
|
|
vincentc
Veteran Niva Petrol Head
Posts: 1,130
Registered: Mar 16, 2011 17:59:16 GMT 2
Karma: Exalt | Smite
|
Post by vincentc on Jun 3, 2011 20:51:21 GMT 2
A point to make on diff life time and loads put onto certain components. The correct lubricant in the front diff will also go a LONG way in improving the ability of the diff internals to survive loads of power put through it. On the 1700_3 pdf manual - rigjt at the very back the relevant specifications of the oils are listed. -ty clearly states GL-5. Please do not use an obsoleted specificatioimn (API GL-4) in your Nivas drive train. It is probably the single biggest contributor to component failure.
Additives to try and improve the oil (solong etc) have about as much effect as Gold plating turds. You still have the stink. ;D The updates to the oil thread will continue once the work and Niva pressures are taken care of.
|
|