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Post by marius on Aug 20, 2011 9:46:14 GMT 2
Hi Ventz and Mike
I do think that this Act is quite important for you guys - and even more important for the consumer out there. If you guys play by the rules (which I am sure you do) you have nothing to worry about.
This Act should be able to protect both sides interest and it will hopefully make life difficult for the crooks out there.
Marius
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spikes
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Post by spikes on Aug 20, 2011 10:22:47 GMT 2
Hi all As far as the Motor Industry is concerned, NAAMSA, the Tow-in Association, Spares distributors grouping, Independent Workshops and a few others were in the process of drawing up a similar set of rules and regulations for the MV industry as what Danie alludes to for his industry I have yet to find a set of the drafts. The original link was here:http://www.bizcommunity.com/Article/196/307/45701.html One thing is sure, downright scams such as Denise and Ronnie met up with could be redressed Regards all Spikes The Draft Code is, as far as I can establish, with the Minister for approval. RMI (Retail Motor Industries) was involved from the start(About two years ago) I have not yet been able to find a copy of the draft that is with the Minister at present. These three links provide a bit more information: www.automechanikasa.co.za/.../Automobil%20April%202011%20Pg%202... www.focusontransport.co.za/features/featured-in-may-2011/620-to-serve-and-protect.htmlwww.rmi.org.za/regards Spikes
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Post by danie on Aug 20, 2011 16:50:37 GMT 2
To my mind the Lada parts which are available locally are way too expensive, therefore I believe it does not make sense to give any of the local Suppliers a "free hand" to replace any parts, without approval by the owner.
I am aware of quite a a few previous Lada owners who simply dumped their Ladas on the market over the years, because they were not expecting bills of more than R10 000 each time they took their Ladas to a Suppliers for repairs / services.
Like some of these owners, an owner who owned two Ladas - and who was involved at the original Locsa Management, once told me that he was getting fed up about overpriced prises and service costs at one of the Suppliers - and he has lost all interest in Ladas as well. I am fully prepared to supply contact details of this previous owner to anyone who might not believe me.
My personal experience , as well as my son's experience at the local Ford Agency (Barloword Armstrong) is proof to me that in "Ladaworld South Africa" the Consumers Protection Act would indeed be very handy !.
Long story - but I think all local Lada owners should know how reputable Car Dealers out there are prepared to follow the rules according to the Consumers Protection Act.
If the local Lada Suppliers seem to "duck and dive" their responsibilities under the Act, to my mind they do not deserve any support at all !
Danie
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Post by danie on Sept 25, 2011 18:13:43 GMT 2
Page 8 and10 of the latest Leasure Wheels magazine (October edition) features a very interesting letter by somebody who has complained about a guarantee by one of the biggest car manufacturers in South Africa.
This guarantee do not seem to be worth the paper it has been written on - and this is part of of the letter which has been published:
"Following the publication of my letter in the July 2011 edition of Leasure Wheels concerning the unfair nature of xxxxx's (manufacturers name) warranty, I was contacted by the National Consumer Commission, and a complaint against the company was registered.
A hearing was arranged shortly after wards at the DTI offices in Pretoria. It did not surprise me that xxxxxx representatives did not turn up. The hearing proceeded in their absence, and I was asked to table my concerns about the warranty. After presenting my evidence, I was informed that this matter was in fact beyond a conciliation hearing, and needed to be upgraded to a full investigation .
I noted with interest that should the commission find that the company has contravened the Consumer Protection Act, it can impose a fine of up to 10 % of the company's annual turnover"
With the above mentioned comments in mind, I just wonder whether the National Consumer Commission will also act as swiftly, should they have the opportunity to have a quick look at some comments at this website ??
Danie
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Post by hotstuff on Sept 25, 2011 20:01:55 GMT 2
well to make a point 4X4 DOCTOR does not duck and dive at all I do my best for my clients and am working on getting the prices at a more affordable rates. Which has taken a lot of work to get right. The only thing that is pushing the price is the exchange rate and custom duties. regards mike
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Post by danie on Sept 25, 2011 20:53:34 GMT 2
Good to know that Mike.
At page 110 of the same edition of the Leisure Wheels magazine, a businessman / supplier also passed these comments regarding the Act:
"According to the Act, sellers must not offer to supply, or enter into an agreement of supply, any goods or services at a price that is unfair, unreasonable, or unjust"
So hopefully a certain Supplier will realize that R7000.00 for a starter motor is looking for trouble...
Regards
Danie
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Post by hotstuff on Sept 25, 2011 21:40:55 GMT 2
what R 7000,00 for a starter holy nuts that is mad. best no one at least i hope they do not fall pray to that. regards mike
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Post by theoboshoff on May 13, 2012 18:58:47 GMT 2
Hi Everyone, This is Theo Boshoff, a final year law student from TUKS and lada driver, I introduced myself 2 years ago but have unfortunately been a bit quiet since. Just a quick word on the consumer protection Act, its a bit of effort but the Act does make provision for a consumer tribunal where you can report companies that are not adhering to the provisions of the Act. I also know that going the legal route is really expensive, but if your claim your claim is less than R12 000 you can take them on in the small claims court.
There are a few of them around the country and they are really informal, no legal representation is allowed and the formal rules of evidence and civil procedure don't apply. It's basically you and the other party arguing infront of a retired attorney/magistrate/advocate, he or she knows the law so you don't need to get legal advice first.
The whole point of small claims courts are to settle small scale commercial disputes quickly and cheaply. It might be worth looking into.
cheers, theo
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Post by danie on May 13, 2012 20:05:57 GMT 2
Hi Theo
Thanks for your comments.
Just a simple question: There are currently four Lada spare part suppliers in our country, who not only sell Lada parts to our local owners, they all do repairs on Ladas as well. They all have "customers / clients" (their own words) - therefore to my mind, they are Service Providers to our local Lada community.
My question - do the four local (Lada) Service Providers have any liability as far as the Consumer's Protection Act is concerned ?
Many thanks
Danie
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Post by theoboshoff on May 13, 2012 20:33:38 GMT 2
Hi Danie,
The Act applies to any transaction in the RSA wherein a "supplier" promotes goods or services. According to the Act a supplier is anyone who "markets any goods or services", supply consequently means to "...sell, rent, exchange and hire in the ordinary course of business for consideration"
The Act hence has a very broad application. So far as these local Service Providers are concerned, I am very confident that they do fall within the ambient of the Act as trading in these goods appear to be their principle source of business. A good indication that this is in fact their business (In which case the Act will apply) is if they pay income tax on the goods in the form of gross income and not capital gains tax. But if you have a slip from them where they charged you VAT, then they almost certainly fall under the Act.
-Theo
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Post by danie on May 13, 2012 21:02:38 GMT 2
Hi Theo
Thanks, I find myself in another field at work, but we have attended an CPA seminar - and apart from the reasons which you have mentioned at your 2nd paragraph, I know for a fact that our company is liable under the Act for the simple reason you have mentioned at the 1st paragraph :
We do market "goods and services" to the public - therefore there is no way how we can wiggle ourselves loose from the CPA.
While the four Lada service Providers also provide a service to our local Lada community, I am more than convinced that they will not be able to wiggle themselves loose from the Act either.
Danie
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Ladaniva
Full Niva Petrol Head
A Lada Niva for a new lease of life
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Post by Ladaniva on Nov 1, 2013 8:25:53 GMT 2
Hi Danie/Theo, Some water ran into the sea since the last posts and it may be quite helpful to our members if you guys may comment on the actual working of the consumer protection act in practice so far!
Maybe Theo can post the final consumer protection act and a short explanation of the sticky issues that were already cleared by the courts so far. Please Theo, it is still a jungle out there! Example, I listened to a very recent discussion on "Ignition" on DSTV channel 189, where the issue of repair or replace of a newly bought car came up. In short, the host stated during the discussion that the supplier has the the right to decide to repair and not to replace a vehicle. As far as I understood it is the right of the consumer to choose between repair and replace, according to the new consumer protection act. Am I correct, in general? What did the courts say so far?
Something I would appreciate Theo to comment on from a legal perspective, on the sole basis of the new consumer protection act is: can suppliers of new vehicles decide on their own if, say for example the gearbox of the new car is faulty, to just replace the gearbox and not the whole vehicle? According to me this is a loophole in the act if they can, because when the man in the street (consumer) buys a new car it is to buy a whole new package of peace of mind (new in the sense that he buys a concept that I fork out extra not to have the schlep to take the vehicle back for faulty component/system after faulty component/system, which is very/more likely with a second hand vehicle).
Regards,
Fanus
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Post by ronnie on Nov 1, 2013 9:57:28 GMT 2
Hi Fanus
The Consumer Protection Act does not concern me now, but where would you draw the line between repairing or replacing. You would need some monetary value, otherwise you would get someone wanting their vehicle replaced rather than a new, for example leaking radiator replaced. What are your views ?.
Ronnie
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Ladaniva
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Post by Ladaniva on Nov 1, 2013 11:36:52 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie, I hope you are well there on the other side of the world!
My view in this regard is quite simple; the new law puts me on an equal footing as the seller (the previous law favoured the haves), so if I now do not trust the vehicle it is my right to walk away at no cost, if I so choose. Leaking radiators on new cars can be prevented because most new cars on mother earth, new and old, do not have leaking radiators.
I owned a small business earlier and if I sold something faulty to someone it was my honour to give the consumer back his money if he so chosen. Sure as hell next time I made sure there is no junk on my racks. I expected the same from others. I see nothing wrong with this principle, so why must the law protect those that choose to exploit the consumer? I do not get it.
There are still many laws that protect the haves, but what I recently experienced first hand is that the legal system in this country is not worth much to protect the consumer against money. In short the big motor manufacturers still do what they like because a fool is born every second. If you have access to the internet have a look what the public protector said about her trust in the parliament when she had to submit a report on corruption of President Zuma. Downright scary. So, I repeat, if you are a fool you will take on big business in South Africa. The bad thing of course is that Tom, Dick and Harry sees this and rip people off together with big business. Every time I get to do with decent business people I stick to them like glue. This is why I do business with people like Ventz, Pavel and Steves Auto Clinic. Believe me I want them to make a good, fair profit from me, not from somebody else, because that is what keep them around. I am only human; it hurts when somebody rips a thorn bush through your legs, especially if they do it without caring about the consequences. It still happens big time in South Africa in spite of the Consumer Protection Act and all the lawyers in South Africa. This is one very good reason why I stick to my Niva, and just grin when I see the millions of possible victims of big unchecked motor companies driving around in their heaps of debt.
Regards,
Fanus
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Post by marius on Nov 1, 2013 12:31:19 GMT 2
"There are still many laws that protect the haves, but what I recently experienced first hand is that the legal system in this country is not worth much to protect the consumer against money. In short the big motor manufacturers still do what they like because a fool is born every second."
Spot on as usual Fanus! Welcome back to the forum after a looong absence. Hope to hear a lot more from you.
Marius
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Ladaniva
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Post by Ladaniva on Nov 1, 2013 15:23:46 GMT 2
Hi Marius,
Thank you for the welcoming and kind words. Yes, I should be more active on the forum now that I am on contract in Namibia and can therefore not work on my projects myself!
The experience I referred to reads like a horror story. It boils down to this (and I solely mentions it because I am one of the very few assholes that believes that people, and woman in particular and not mechanically minded should not be taken advantage of when they buy cars):
Motor manufacturers decide behind closed doors how they will service their customers and if the consumer does not like it; bugger him around until he gets tired, but do not change the business plan. Please note that this is worldwide.
In short: I bought my wife a brand spanking new "drivers car" par excellence. A brilliant car that suits my wife to a "t", even featured on Discovery channel! We love it. It got a manufacturers guarantee, a service/maintenance plan and is built in Europe by a major motor manufacturer. As the pamphlet said " Buy a xxxx and buy happiness".
Huh, now what is wrong then? What can possibly go wrong?
Very simple: It took them almost two years to get the gearboxes in this car relatively sorted. No, you read correctly; there is a "s" on "gearboxes" and I did use the word "relatively" in the last sentence. I kid you not; I bought it brand new with a gearbox that "clanked" or "clonked" so loudly when you let go of the clutch gently that the one lady at work exclaimed: " What, Brm, Brm say all xxxxx sound like this; it sounds as if something is going to break out of the car. I can not believe your wife use this car! I will not drive this car." When did the lady at work said this; after only traveling 50 metres in the car at about 10 km an hour, first gearbox. The second brand new imported gearbox was much, much worse.
What did I have to listen to when I returned the the car to the flashy dealer with the second noisy gearbox ( this gearbox sometimes loudly "clonked" also when one just moved the gear lever from neutral to first gear, with the vehicle stationary, and the brakes applied): Yes I can hear it, but "Brm Brm will not fix it". I obviously asked him why? His answer says it all: "Do you think Brm Brm will change the way they build gearboxes? It is not going to happen."
In the end, although Brm Brm do not repair gearboxes at all in South Africa, they do not even have the tools to take it apart, had the local agent of the Japanese manufactured gearbox in South Africa, to take it apart and "shim it and polished the gears". The gearbox is still much, much noisier than the 17 year old one in my Isuzu bakkie when you let the clutch pedal out gently. So beware consumer; if you buy a new car, and you do not have the deepest of deep pockets you may just become frustrated until you have enough money to trade the car in, which may be quite a long time. Stuff the poor soul that buy this state of the art car and you hoped that the agent will be able to repair all the major components when out of the maintenance/service plan ( if they think it is necessary). It is not going to happen; they are going to quote you on a new gearbox for sure. Take it or leave it, fool. It is not my problem that you are poor (and the gearbox was not properly built in the first place.)
Regards,
Fanus
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Post by marius on Nov 1, 2013 15:59:04 GMT 2
I feel for you Fanus.Probably the best remedy is to test drive the exact same model from the dealership and see (hear) if there is a marked difference. From what you describe chances are good there will be a difference as it certainly sounds far from normal!
Marius
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Ladaniva
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Post by Ladaniva on Nov 1, 2013 17:15:53 GMT 2
Hi Marius, Indeed, it does not sound possible at all that this is a common problem. I did not give the whole story and all the facts simply because it will take up too much time of the readers, but believe me there are many, many of these cars running around with the same problem! Example; my son asked an old lady at the garage where he filled up, if her Xxxx is also so noisy when changing gear? It was the exact same model and even colour. She had exactly the same problem and the dealer played it down that all of these models make this noise. my son called me two weeks ago while in traffic on the highway to tell me that he is driving next to another xxxx and that he can hear the same noise when gears are changed! He is not even in the car! I can carry on for hours about this whole issue. The interesting thing is that exactly the same higher output xxx's fitted with the beefed up gearbox does not make the noise at all. I know because we drove one for a month while Brm Brm imported the gearbox!
I have stacks of documents as proof of everything, including an AA report, which states that the noise is due to too much play in the gearbox ( I even told them exactly what the problem was). Now that they finally adjusted the clearances in the gearbox the noise is much, much less. This alone proof above any shadow of doubt that the gearboxes were both faulty, because by assembling them correctly the noise goes away. It is that simple. No need to stuff the consumer around if the factory is at fault, irrespective if the factory is in the UK or Japan.
Just Google the palaba that Toyota had in the USA a while ago, because they knew about a safety issue with certain models and decided to do nothing about it until it became known to the general public!
It is common practice to forget/consider the people that made you if it is going well. That is why laws are required to keep people in line. Unfortunately, as I mentioned even the laws bend for money!
Regards,
Fanus
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Post by ronnie on Nov 1, 2013 19:24:22 GMT 2
Hi Fanus,
Everything is fine on this side of the world. The time was right for us to return to the UK, though we are in England and not Scotland. The value of our Rand`s dictated where we could afford to buy a house. It is worse now as you will be lucky to get better than 17 to the £. It is scary. We bought a "new" car recently, and to try and make sure we were not caught we bought a dealers car with 7000mls on the clock, so we were able to drive it first before spending our money. I feel very sorry for anyone who gets caught with faulty cars or whatever, as I realise it can be difficult to get anything done once they have your money. Don`t know who you bought from, but I can tell you I did a lot of work for BMW in SA and it took them 5 Months to pay me what they owed, and I am talking R300000 plus. You can`t win.
Keep well
Ronnie
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Ladaniva
Full Niva Petrol Head
A Lada Niva for a new lease of life
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Post by Ladaniva on Nov 2, 2013 10:37:50 GMT 2
Hi Ronnie, Yes, the exchange rate is downright scary. I personally think that any time is right to leave South Africa, the way things are and especially going. This comes from a guy that in the past was willing to die (literally) for anybody in SA. I am currently working in Namibia and so far I am mightily impressed with all the people of this country I had the privilege to meet. It clearly shows what the impact is of the hatred of the racist ANC. If only the impoverished South Africans can see the light and vote for (any) other party and SA will be the China or Korea of Africa. South Africa got huge potential.
It will unfortunately take quite a while for African leaders to realise that the countries that had the open pockets for Africa for years themselves now are in deep water due to the crazy money printing over the last few decades. The only way out of this madness is to grow the economies at a rapid pace, coupled with sound monetary policies. Unless you believe in fairies this is not going to happen in SA soon.
What I stated above of course have a direct impact on how we plan our recreation, in our case use a 4 x 4 (or 4 - 2 in some cases) to enjoy the few comparative advantages SA have over other countries, like un spoilt nature, good weather etc. I heard over BBC or CNN news yesterday that SA is the rape capital of the world. Huh, If I remembered a while ago we were one of the countries in the world with the highest crime rates in the world. Imagine you must advertise SA in the world media for hiking or game drives etc. Now you must lie to your clients by telling them it is relatively safe in SA, just take care ( do not worry man they only blew up three ATM's in the upmarket Area Centurion recently it does not happen in this bush camp and this one out in the stix). Still people in SA spend unbelievable money on vehicles intended to be used for recreation but use it to drive around in town ( many, many are sold because the owners experience fear during their normal traveling in and around towns and cities, because of inferior infrastructure and government services). Combine all this with the callousness of big business and I can not tell you how glad I am that my recreation vehicle is a Niva. I do not only owe others huge amounts of money just to own a recreation vehicle, I do not have to just drive it around town and tar roads because my insurance does not cover real 4 x 4, my trade-in is out of the window if I do, the big motor corporations can not touch me, and I do not have sleepless nights about the conditions of the road; I am far less the slave of other exploiters! Viva Niva!
I would have loved to be in Europe with my Niva. If you wish you can even drive with your new car to Russia, and I bet the last thing you will be worried about will be when or if you or your wife will be killed or mugged, like most South Africans do have to consider if they are aware of what is going on around them.
Regards,
Fanus
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