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Post by danie on Nov 6, 2011 8:13:48 GMT 2
As mentioned under another Thread, I have stripped both my Gearboxes which have been rebuild by two Professionals, and I am currently rebuilding them myself. My Lada's original Gearbox has been repaired by a local professional firm just before the Locsa Website became alive again. At that time the 4 th gear kept on jumping out, and I didn't had any knowledge about gearboxes, and I did not know where to get any advice from any Lada owner who could give any advice . Therefore I took the gearbox to the local firm. This Gearbox has never been used since the repair, but since I received the gearbox from the firm, I could hear a slight "rubbing" noise when the Output Flange was turned. I wasn't too worried about the noise, because I was confident that the professionals have done a proper job. My Spare Gearbox has recently been rebuilt by another local professional. I decided to order new Oil Seals for this Gearbox from Pavel, and on arrival I have noticed that these seals were Viton. So I then decided to order Viton oil seals for my original (repaired) gearbox as well. I was quite confident to strip the original Gearbox and replace the seals, because I've got the spare gearbox as "sample" during re-assembling which really makes things very easy: When I stripped the original Gearbox, I have observed several things which convinced me that the Firm who has repaired the Gearbox, has actually done nothing but a unprofessional "back yard" job. Firstly, they have just re-installed the original Oil Seals - which were completely warn ! Secondly, they have installed a thick washer at the fith gear Bolt - which cause the bolt to rub against the Plug at the rear of the housing - which obviously caused the rubbing noise ! The bolt marks on the plug can be seen at this pic: Thirdly - they have re-installed a broken Thrust Ring , which has probably caused the 4th Gear to jump out ! The broken Thrust Ring can be seen at the left of this pic - the ring at the center is a spare ring in my possession, and the one at the right has been removed from my spare Gearbox which has also been rebuilt recently: By having a close look at the broken Thrust Ring, and comparing it with the other to Rings in my possession, I have noticed some substantial wear on the broken one (see the shiny inner part of the Ring at the pic above). The Ring has clearly lost some "meat" - and is thinner / weaker that the other two rings at the pic. By trying ti find out why the Thrust Ring got worn, I noticed that the outer ring of the Bearing on which the Thrust Ring press against , also rotates (slips in the gearbox Housing) - and the friction obviously cause the wear on the Ring ! So I have then had a look at the outer rings on the other Bearings. Almost all of them are slipping - some are slipping badly ! From our experience at work, we do know that slipping bearing Outer Rings do cause overheating problems in electric motors, as well as other applications - so I simply do not like the idea of slipping bearing Rings inside any of my Gearboxes ! Therefore I am in process of tripping both Gearboxes (one by one) again, and my intention is to use Pacer retaining compound to ensure that no bearing rings will be slipping inside my gearboxes: Some time ago we started using the Pacer compound quite often at work, and it works like a charm - so I think it can definitely be used in a Lada Gearbox as well.... Danie
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Post by Charles on Nov 6, 2011 11:39:35 GMT 2
Thanks for the important information.?
Charles
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Post by danie on Dec 17, 2011 17:30:26 GMT 2
I have stripped the first Gearbox, and have used the Pacer ANL compound to ensure that no outer or inner bearing rings on my Gearboxes will be slipping in future: Stripped Gearbox: Degreased and preparing the Gearbox Housing to apply Pacer ANL: Degreasing: Degreasing : Degreasing the outer Bearing ring which slips and caused wear on the Thrust Ring: Applying Pacer ANL to the bearing Ring: Applying Pacer ANL to the Housing: Five minutes after Pacer stuff had been applied, the outer bearing Ring could not be rotated by hand any longer: I am quite sure that this effort will stop any future wear and failures on the Thrust Rings in my gearboxes......and hopefully it will minimize the chance of facing another 4th Gear problem again. Danie
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Post by Charles on Dec 17, 2011 21:01:15 GMT 2
Danie where can one get the Pacer compound? I think this is what is causing my problems. Will order a full set of bearings and thrust washers and redo my box again. Will replace all components with wear on them.
Danie do you think the fiat speedo drive's reading will be out with the niva cluster?
Charles
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Post by danie on Dec 18, 2011 7:29:48 GMT 2
Hi Charles
The Pacer compound is available at Bearing Man.
In my Gearboxes almost every single Outer and Inner bearing ring is slipping - in some cases it slips quite bad. No bearing on earth is suppose to work like that - and from experience at work we know that slipping bearing rings do cause overheating problems in other applications.
You just need to make sure that all components in your Gearbox is still in good condition before you do use the Pacer compound. This stuff sticks like hell, and once it's been used, it will be a bit more difficult to strip the Gearbox in future.
It shouldn't be a real problem though - to remove bearing rings when the Pacer compound has been used, we use Acetylene to heat up the bearing rings and housings (other applications) at work.
As far as the Fiat Speedo Drive is concerned - the driving Gear (as seen at one of the previous pics) fits to the Lada Spigot Shaft, but the other Gear which drives the cable can not be used on the Lada gearbox Housing. The rear Fiat Housing differs from the Lada's rear gearbox Housing, and the Fiat's "cable gear unit" has been made to suit the Fiat's rear gearbox Housing.
Danie
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Post by Charles on Dec 18, 2011 12:24:23 GMT 2
Hi Danie
Thank you for all the important info. Before I do my box I will definitely contact BMG and get some of the stuff.
Charles
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Ladaniva
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Post by Ladaniva on Dec 18, 2011 21:08:04 GMT 2
Hi Danie/Charles,
I am sure Vincent will recall many a case where technical guys depended on "muties" to fix tolerance problems on assemblies/moving parts and came second. The fact of the matter is if the tolerance is too big very few chemicals can make that good over time. Your enemies: heat and vibration. A product like pacer (a good product) will only work as long as the leverage is within tolerance. In other words if the gap filling is just within spec to retain the bearing after assembly with new parts, after a while excess gap, caused in the first place due to friction and heat mis-forming the seating area of the bearing outer, magnified by vibration may weaken the chemical bond.
If you read the instruction on products like pacer you will see it is an assembly chemical, implying that it is used as part of the assembly process where tolerance is not destroyed by parts eating away metal. It was designed from the outset to prevent parts from moving at all.
Regards,
Fanus
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Post by danie on Dec 19, 2011 5:54:48 GMT 2
Hi Fanus
Since Slowvelder informed us about this product (Pacer), we started using it quite often at work - even in cases where the tolerances exceeds the limit as indicated at the brochure. And it still works perfectly.
I think it should work perfectly in my gearboxes as well - for the following reasons:
1. At work I have seen this product lasted in cases where the tolerances have been worse than the tolerances at my Lada's Gearbox.
2. All Bearings and Gears inside my Gearboxes are still in perfect condition - so in theory there should be no vibration on any of the components.
3. According to the label on the Pacer container this product can handle temperatures up to 450 deg Fahrenheit (232 deg Celsius). I don't think the Lada Gearbox will ever be submitted to temperatures like that during normal conditions.
Again, I think anyone who might be thinking of using this product, should make very sure that all components are in perfect condition before the Gearbox gets assembled. The bearing rings and housing will have to be heated to remove the bearings in future - and if you do not have proper heating equipment, it will be very difficult to remove the bearings again.
Jy gaan jou gat af sukkel, en boonop vloek soos n matroos.
Regards
Danie
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Post by Charles on Dec 19, 2011 10:09:49 GMT 2
Fanus I agree with you. Will be useless to use it if the parts and clearances is not in spec.
Charles
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Post by danie on Dec 19, 2011 19:17:46 GMT 2
Well, I know what I know, and I am quite confident that this product will make a positive difference at my first completed gearbox.
Should it fail to stop the bearing Ring which destroys the Trust Ring from slipping, at least it should stop the wearing process at the other parts of the gearbox Housing....
Danie
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Post by Ladaniva on Dec 19, 2011 22:03:22 GMT 2
Hi Danie,
I actually have a container of this stuff in my garage for quite a while (my brother gave it to me and he was also very, very impressed with it). Now that I read your reply I am going to test it on more than just tight fitting joints/assemblies.
You will surely be better off using the Pacer than not, and if you saw the stuff work under challenging conditions for a long time who can criticize you? I surely fixed and build/assemble a few things with epoxy that nobody else would dream to do (even build a security door that is still holding fine after two years of abuse). Please do not do this at home!!!
The rear wheel bearing on my sons car rusted on the CV and the hub and it was a fight with a screaming pig to get it off last week (broke two wheel pullers even after heating it, spookpiepie, geduld and hitting it with a hammer etc. In the end a simple job ended up taking the complete unit to an engineering shop to get it pressed off. If "ouma se salf" were used the whole process would have been a walk in the park. So much for Mercedes build quality.
Just for interest sake: the combustion process in a normal petrol engine generates heat in the cylinder head of 300 degrees Celsius, so your gearbox will never get even close to the tolerance level of Pacer.!
Regards,
Fanus
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Post by danie on May 12, 2012 22:14:33 GMT 2
Today I have partly stripped my Lada's original Gearbox again - for three reasons : 1. To replace the slightly worn Thrust Ring, with one of the thicker Thrust Rings which came from Pavel. The slightly worn ring can be seen at the left of this pic: 2. To apply a little bit of Loctite to the Nuts which can be seen at the next pic. Since I have assembled the Gearbox some time ago, I have noticed that somebody has recommended some Loctite on these Nuts - so right or wrong, I have applied just a little bit of Loctite: 3. Unlike my spare Gearbox, the inner Bearing ring on the Output Shaft was too loose on the output Shaft, and I have applied some Pacer ANL to the splines when the Gearbox has been assembled . While I was not sure how well the Pacer would hold the slipping inner ring in place on the shaft, I was hoping to find out how tight the inner ring sticks to the Shaft. Well, the Pacer ANL work perfectly, and I had to whack the Inner Ring real hard to get it off the Shaft ! This pic shows the Pacer ANL, at the inside of the bearing ring. Although the Pacer ANL only got in contact with the Shaft at the "knuckles" of the splines, the Ring was now sitting real tight on the Shaft : But I have also discovered something very interesting. During this week one of our members was asking a question about aluminum shavings which has been discovered in the Gearbox oil. Apart from slipping Bearing outer rings which could be the cause , I decided to have a close look at the Bellhousing - specially at the area where the Thrust Ring gets in contact with the Bellhousing. Bingo ! On my Gearbox the slipping outer ring has not only wear the Thrust ring down - it also caused the (worn) Thrust Ring to spin, and the spinning coned shape Thrust Ring has clearly chewed / cut a groove into the Bellhousing ! So I have also applied some Pacer ANL to the damaged Bellhousing . Although I have already applied Pacer to the outer Bearing ring which has damaged the Thrust Ring previously, I think the Pacer stuff should also help to prevent further damage to the Bellhousing: Danie
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Post by Charles on May 13, 2012 13:14:16 GMT 2
Hi Danie
Thanks for that. How much is the Pacer ANL? I will get myself some of it and use it on all the bearings in my box. Also on the thrust ring.
Charles
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Post by danie on May 13, 2012 18:38:06 GMT 2
Hi Charles Pacer is available at Bearing Man , at about R31 or R35 (can't remember the exact price) for 10 ml. You don't need more than 10 ml. on the Lada gearbox. Just take note - according to one of the salesmen at the local Bearing Man Pacer ANL can also been used as replacement for Loctite. I will never use Pacer ANL as ""Loctite" at any of the bolts at the Lada gearbox - it sticks like hell, and could easily cause problems when the bolts have to be removed in future. Should you be tempted to use Pacer ANL on the 5th / Reverse gear bolt, please don't - the bolt could easily break when it has to be removed in future, and then you will not be able to remove the broken bolt. Ventz has also passed a warning regarding Loctite at the 5th gear bolt, some time ago: www.locsa.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=582&page=16Danie
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Post by Charles on May 13, 2012 18:59:02 GMT 2
Danie will loctite not also work on the bearings?
Charles
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Post by danie on May 13, 2012 19:50:11 GMT 2
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Post by Charles on May 13, 2012 19:55:53 GMT 2
Hi Danie
In that case I will get some Pacer ANL.
Charles
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ladanivabelgium
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Post by ladanivabelgium on May 18, 2012 19:22:29 GMT 2
i do not agree with using loctite or simmalar on bearings of a Niva gear box. As we all know the box will be overhauled more than once in it's lifetime. I do a lot of gear box overhaulling and i know it can be a serious pain when bearings are stuck in the housing. The gear box will be nearly impossible to dismantle when you use loctite between bearing and housing. BTW: i never had a gear box with slipping outer bearing rings. What brand are the bearings? I made some pics of the overhaulling i started today: www.forum.ladanivabelgium.be/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=5019
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Post by Charles on May 18, 2012 19:47:42 GMT 2
Very nice pics Jan.
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Post by ladanivabelgium on May 19, 2012 9:00:40 GMT 2
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Post by danie on May 19, 2012 9:45:59 GMT 2
i do not agree with using loctite or simmalar on bearings of a Niva gear box. As we all know the box will be overhauled more than once in it's lifetime. I do a lot of gear box overhaulling and i know it can be a serious pain when bearings are stuck in the housing. The gear box will be nearly impossible to dismantle when you use loctite between bearing and housing. BTW: i never had a gear box with slipping outer bearing rings. What brand are the bearings? Hi Jan Loctite (as well as Pacer ANL ) are not causing serious problems when bearings have to be removed afterwards. All you need to do is to apply some heat to the bearing Housings, and the bearings Rings will come loose quite easy. We often do this at work, at other applications as well. I must admit, I do find it very strange that you have never found slipping bearing rings at a Lada gearbox. On both my gearboxes every single outer ring was slipping. I also have a (3rd) spare Lada gearbox Housing in my possession - there are also clear indications that all outer bearing rings were slipping inside the Housing as well. At this spesific Housing the groove which has also been cut by the spinning Thrust Ring, is not as deep as the groove at the pic on the previous page. The Bearings at both my Gearboxes are all OEM Russian Bearings - at this stageI do not know what bearings were fitted to the spare Housing in my possession. The nagged bearings are somewhere in my garage, and I will have a look... Danie
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Post by danie on May 19, 2012 10:13:25 GMT 2
Hi Charles
Whenever you strip the gearbox, it will be interesting to hear whether you did find slipping outer bearing rings at the main gearbox Housing as well.
Just have a close look for wear at the Thrust Ring, and please tell us about your observations.
Danie
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ladanivabelgium
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Post by ladanivabelgium on May 19, 2012 12:53:31 GMT 2
danie, i will also have a look. I have now 2 used thrust rings, the one from the gear box i've just overhauled and the one from the box i just took from my diesel. The bell housing must be swapped, so i can take some pics of both rings and post them here. BTW, i will take pics of my diesel flywheel to Danie: sorry for hacking your topic ;D
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Post by Charles on May 19, 2012 13:41:07 GMT 2
Hi Danie
I remember from last time I striped my box the at least the input shaft bearing was slipping.
Charles
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Post by danie on May 19, 2012 13:43:38 GMT 2
No problem Jan - thanks for the link and pics at your website.
The more we know and understand the little "secrets" of the Lada gearbox, the better the chance that people might start making a special effort to ensure that there will be no need to worry about the Lada gearbox..
Danie
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Post by danie on May 19, 2012 13:49:26 GMT 2
Hi Charles.
Thanks - when you do strip it again, just have a close look at the Thrust Ring.
If you haven't replace it before, I am prepared to bet my front teeth that you will find indications of wear at the Thrust Ring.
Danie
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Post by Charles on May 19, 2012 13:51:43 GMT 2
My thrust ring is badly worn and broken. Last time I was forced to refit it like that because I did not have a spare one and I needed to get my box finished because the car had to go through roadworthy.
Charles
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Post by danie on May 19, 2012 14:29:47 GMT 2
Just to explain why outer bearing rings start slipping at any given housing - the Lada gearbox included. When a bearing Inner and Outer ring start getting worn, (pitted) and the bearing started getting "rough" , the bearing rollers / balls are adding additional friction to the inner and outer bearing Rings. The more "pitted" the bearing Rings , the better the chance that it will start slipping. A pic from Jan's website - which shows a pitted bearing ring. When an inner bearing ring looks like that, the chance is about 100% that the outer ring will be pitted as well: Problem is, once any given bearing outer Ring starts slipping, it wears the bearing Housing down, and the Housing will be damaged for ever. Jan, if this specific outer bearing ring has not started slipping inside the Gearbox housing yet - believe me, it was on the brink of start slipping ! Danie
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ladanivabelgium
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Post by ladanivabelgium on May 20, 2012 7:18:47 GMT 2
Danie, this bearing comes out of a gear box with a cracked 5the gear housing. It has been running without any oil in it, but not for many miles. The main housing was still perfect. I took some pictures of 3 different thrust rings, one brand new and 2 used ones. The pictures are no good, they are very blurry. i will make new pictures later today. I also measured them. They are all +- 1,5 mm thik The promised pictures of my diesel flywheel and bell housing: also: a small (and last) update on the Belgian forum (see link above)
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ladanivabelgium
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Post by ladanivabelgium on May 20, 2012 7:41:08 GMT 2
as for the problems of a Niva gear box: i do believe that design is completely wrong and that we will NEVER EVER be able to let it last as long as the car itself. I believe that al problems are caused by the connection and setup from the input- and output shaft. The loose nut at the back of the gear box is just a trigger The only connection between the in- and output shafts, and what's keeping them in one straight line is just a very little vulnerable needle bearing. When this tiny bearing get's damaged orn worn out both shafts will be out of balance and they WILL damage both big bearings. let's discuss this, i would like to get to the bottom of this
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